Benjamin L. Corey

Benjamin L. Corey

BLC is an author, speaker, scholar, and global traveler, who holds graduate degrees in Theology & Intercultural Studies from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, and received his doctorate in Intercultural Studies from Fuller. He is the author of Undiluted: Rediscovering the Radical Message of Jesus, and Unafraid: Moving Beyond Fear-Based Faith.

It’s Not Pro-Life If You’re Going to Sacrifice the Old Folks

Corona virus pro-life
Trump claims to be pro-life, but it's not pro-life to intentionally sacrifice Grandpa Jones for Dow Jones.

Each day seems more and more like a science fiction movie that few of us ever imagined actually experiencing, as we navigate a deadly and world-sweeping viral epidemic. Most Americans, regardless of state, are now in a shelter-in-place quarantine scenario of various degrees as we attempt to slow the spread of the COVID-19 virus.

How long will this crisis last? We truly don’t know– but by all accounts we do know that maximizing survival rates is critically dependent on continuing social distancing and shelter in place efforts across the country. It may not protect the economy, but it will undoubtedly save countless lives– especially the elderly and vulnerable.

And yet, even though disease control experts are united on what is necessary to save potentially thousands of lives, our “pro-life” president is breaking with the medical community and stating that he’d not only like to see America “reopen” in a few weeks, but that he wants to see “churches packed” on Easter.

(Side note- if the antichrist were to come and wanted to kill off Christians, telling them to go pack churches during an epidemic would be a great way to do it.)

Donald Trump was elected in large part because he convinced evangelicals to overlook 1001 reasons why a faithful Christian could never support him, and he did it by claiming to be “pro-life”. And throughout his presidency every— and I mean EVERY– time I’ve pointed out his grossly immoral character to Christian Trump supporters, I get the same response: “But, but, he’s pro-life…”

So for all the Christian Trump supporters out there who passionately defend their support on the grounds of being “pro-life,” let me break this down for you:

It’s not pro-life if we decide to let the old folks get killed off.

It’s not pro-life to protect the unborn but sacrifice the ones that were already born.

It is no secret that as a nation, we are being forced to pick between two crappy options– saving lives or saving parts of the economy. But for those who call themselves pro-life, there is no way around this one.

You cannot jump into a discussion on abortion and claim that “as a nation it is dangerous to decide who lives and who dies based on the convenience of the living,” as we were all taught to argue, but then turn around and decide the economic cost is too great and too inconvenient to justify protecting the lives of the elderly and others at high risk.

You cannot in one breath claim that Trump is a “pro-life” president who believes in protecting the sanctity of life, and in another breath support sacrificing the old folks.

I mean, c’mon. Even Franklin Graham gets this one:

Our nation is at a potential crossroad in the battle to contain COVID-19, and the path we choose has real lives in the balance. We face a choice of doing what is good for the economy, or doing what is right for the vulnerable… a choice between saving money or saving real lives.

For those who value human life above all else, there should be no question to be had on this one:

It’s not pro-life when someone is willing to sacrifice Grandpa Jones for Dow Jones.

Benjamin L. Corey

Benjamin L. Corey

BLC is an author, speaker, scholar, and global traveler, who holds graduate degrees in Theology & Intercultural Studies from Gordon-Conwell, and earned his doctorate in Intercultural Studies from Fuller.

He is the author of Unafraid: Moving Beyond Fear-Based Faith, and Undiluted: Rediscovering the Radical Message of Jesus.

It's not the end of the world, but it's pretty #@&% close. Trump's America & Franklin Graham's Christianity must be resisted.

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168 Responses

  1. heh, all the comments are older.

    I guess all the people who thought “Maybe casting us into another Great Depression, complete with a whole bunch of deaths, should be avoided” aren’t so eager to talk about crowds now that they’re crowding the streets looting.

  2. It’s almost cute how “we should carefully open up the economy so we don’t fall into a depression” is somehow sacrificing people for DOW Jones….

    …but gathering thousands of people into a small space for a riot is just fine.

  3. I see Governor Cuomo did kill 5000 seniors by forcing senior homes to take people with Covid. This didn’t happen in Florida. The moral is Democrat Governors don’t care about seniors anymore that babies.

  4. Turns out Governor Cuomo killed thousands of seniors by ordering Assisted Living Centers to take back seniors suffering from Covid after release from hospital. Today he reversed his order but too late for all the dead.

  5. Playing devil’s advocate here (I’m not suggesting we should have has packed churches at Easter or that the nation’s governors need to relax all economic restrictions now), it’s easier to make it a question of “lives vs. economic growth” than a question of “lives vs. livelihoods.” I think the latter is how we should be framing this rather than something very abstract like “the economy.”

    We sacrifice people’s lives all the time by making certain choices in how we structure our society, choices nearly everyone is okay with. We don’t shut down stores and restaurants every time flu season roles around. We don’t ban driving because people die in car accidents. We don’t ban alcohol, tobacco, or guns even though they end up hurting people. We make these trade-offs all the time. Does that make those of us who say we care about people’s lives phonies? I’m inclined to think we made the right decision in this situation to shut things down, but trying to turn this into a question of “are you pro-life or not” doesn’t square with the kind of decisions we make all the time.

  6. How does a country which spends so much more per person on health care than countries with free health care, have such a sh*thouse health system?

  7. The pro-life president is going to cost hundreds of thousands of lives by his own idiocy and narcissism.

    Why is God more interested in what people do with their genitals than actually saving lives?

  8. In 2 days the US death rate has doubled.

    Remember when Trump said he had this under control and it would be zero. (btw South Korea had their first case the same time as the US except they took it seriously. Your leader wanted to play politics).

    Your faith in your fake messiah and his bs is leading the USA to disaster.

    Be safe. Stay indoors and only go out for essentials. Stay 6 feet apart and wash your hands. Stay away from older people if you can.

    My thoughts are with you guys who have to pay the consequences of a President who has failed his people and led them to death and disaster.

    1. The saddest thing is that those of us who didn’t vote for him are suffering, too. Four years ago, I saw the apocalypse coming and tried to forstall it with a well-placed series of votes (Democratic ticket, even though I’m an Independent)… and well…

      Sometimes, evil wins the battle.

        1. I just think the fact that Trump isn’t in an ICU is showing that there is no justice in the world.

          I’ll let you know if I pick up a Shinigami’s notebook. That should solve things.

        2. I do have some Trumpy relatives that I still love… despite…things. I don’t want to see them dead. Just bad leadership ousted…those who are leading them astray.

          I’d love to shake them and make them friggin’ wake up.

          But I’m sure they feel the same about me. Especially after we see each other’s Facebook posts.

  9. Unbelievable that the US leader says its about harming his electoral chances. Yeah hundreds are dying everyday in Europe to stop Trump getting elected. Moron!

  10. CDC estimates that influenza has resulted in between 9 million – 45 million illnesses, between 140,000 – 810,000 hospitalizations and between 12,000 – 61,000 deaths annually since 2010.
    https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html

    FACT: Churches were open, corporations and small bussinesses were open, movie theaters were open, restaurants were open etc. all the while Obama was president, but there was no shutdown. It’s amazing how the left are such hypocrites when it’s Trump. On second thought, it is not amazing because hypocricy with the left is always the case.

    1. The death rate as a percentage of the positives is the most telling. Today, 3/26, it is much higher than the normal flu – which is about 0.1%. Most of the Left do not understand math so this will go over their heads. The positives will rise dramatically with increased testing and so the Corona death rate percentage will drop. Only then will we know how Corona relates to the typical flu.

      For the more inquisitive conservatives among us we have
      Revelation 18:11. The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her because no one buys their cargoes anymore–.
      Question – who is Her. This is not difficult but I wait to be informed by the Leftists among us…

      1. You don’t understand maths.

        The flu doesn’t kill 800 people in a day. You’ve already reached your whole flu season.

        Maybe this is a way of God culling the idiots out of the world.

        It’s sad for those you have contact with and infect.

        Amazing that the world is imploding and you’re still screaming about Leftists.

        When you’re buried no one’s gonna give a shit about how right wing Bob was.

        And ‘her’ is Imperial Rome.

        1. Bones, you what is cool about the God of scripture? It’s that he lets idiots be idiots and then laughs….check out Psalm 2.

          1. Yes he’ll laugh as you struggle to breathe through your last gasp.

            How cool is your god.

            But at least you have your insurance policy.

            1. you know Bones, I am truly saddened that your mind is so closed to Biblical truth….MY God is “cool” beyond comprehension…so much so that even if I die gasping it’s ok cause that isn’t the end…it is only the beginning. I do wish you weren’t so blind to that reality
              Oh, and by the way I don’t have life insurance.

              1. I’m truly saddened that your mind is so closed to education…. Your god will laugh as you die from your own idiocy… According to you… And yes, it will be the end of you, Everitt, no matter how much your pie in the sky religion tells you otherwise.

                1. Bone, you can certainly argue your position but anyone with any modicum of learning knows the issue of god has been argued persuasively by much brighter people than you or me. You have a god and as I watch you pontificate I would have no confidence in your god. Even the idea that when “its over its over” is a fairly weak plank in which to place your trust. Education should make you aware that if you have any modicum of humility…that is you haven’t let your hubris write checks your body can’t cash..you would realize you might be dying a slow death from you own idiocy. I think I will take my “pie in the sky religion” and work out my life accordingly. In the end I have the chance of a good life either way. Nihilism is a rather dour pill to swallow.

                    1. Bob why is your god more interested in hating gays, lefties and women who have abortions than helping people who are dying?

                      Your god is your own projection.

                      I know you’re too much of a coward to answer.

                    2. The irony of you, Bob, is that Trump’s bs which you fell head over heels for, is going to kill you and your loved ones.

                      And Everitt’s God will laugh.

                    3. agreed Bob…I continue to admire your willingness to spar with stupidity and ignorance. Good job.

                    4. You fell for lies and narcissism…. And you’re reaping the fruit of it now.

                      And your God laughed.

                      You really are a pathetic evil little man.

                      If there was any justice, most of those dead would be trump voters.

                  1. Bahaha Everitt I don’t need eternal threats or rewards to be a better person. Maybe you should consider that your god laughing at your own death and others dying is a projection of you. God won’t protect you nor save you from covid-19. That’s something we have to do.

    2. Fact: covid is not a normal flu.

      It’s killing up to 800 people a day in countries like Spain and Italy.

      I’m expecting an absolute disaster in the USA with the type of idiocy coming out of it.

      1. Sounds like you are rooting for a disaster in the USA. You should list all that free stuff you are getting under Socialism in your country, it might convince some Socialists on this site to leave this capitalist hell hole in your opinion.

        1. Lol…well covid will weed out the idiots.

          Which will be a fair chunk of the USA because its no different to the flu, Billy Bob.

          This virus actually attacks the lining of your lungs and alveoli.

          A shame you’re going to kill innocents as well.

          Btw I also get a covid payment and a parenting benefit to go with my next free flu shot.

          Probably why Trump says our health system is so much better than yours.

          1. IF it is so “covid will weed out the idiots” you had better get your say in quickly….you don’t have long.

      2. guess you were wrong on that one. of course our socialist inclined leaders in NY did a GREAT job getting the virus started there.

        1. ARE new Jersey, Florida and Comnecticut socialist?

          Nah trump has been caught out on this and his bs will cost you hundreds of thousands of lives.

    3. Interesting that the Right wing governments in the UK, ITALY, Australia and now, after farting around, Trump are now leftists.

      Sometimes you have to put your ideology away when it means life and death.

      Obviously that’s not the case with you.

      But hey its only the flu.

      Don’t worry about washing your hands and social distancing.

  11. “The description “pro-life” was adopted by the right-to-life (anti-abortion) movement in the United States following the Supreme Court 1973 decision Roe v. Wade.”

    You are trying to redefine the meaning of of the phrase to suit your narrative. The only administration trying to kill off older citizens was Obama and his “death panels” in the Obamacare bill.

    Also Trump was elected for his campaign promises by a diverse group of our citizens of which Evangelicals were only a part. It was hoped he would clean up the sleeze in Washington and judging by the monumental vitriol spouting out of the Media and the Democrats for four years he is succeeding.

    1. It’s sad many on the left (both believers and nonbelievers) are trying to hijack the term “pro-life” and turn it into something they like. People like Corey are why I don’t take liberal Christianity seriously.

      1. It’s sad that many on the right only care about life in the womb and have hijacked the term pro-life. .

        People like you are why we don’t take Conservative Christianity seriously.

        1. At least conservative Christianity uplifts people and provides them hope, grace, and truth. Liberal Christianity (as demonstrated by you, Benjamin Corey, his supporters, and many others on the Christian Left) judges and condemns people. Christian liberals only love the neighbors who think/act just like them. The lack of grace, hope, and Faith-based inspiration almost makes me want to compare the Christian Left to Westboro Baptist Church and others like them.

          The Christian Left is almost as bad as atheist groups.

          1. You mean like Dietrich Bonhoeffer or MLK. We see through your lies.

            Conservative Christianity offers nothing that you can’t get from any other conservative religion.

            It’s why you have to lie all the time.

          2. People have different views from different sides of the field.

            I’ll concede that for a time in my life, conservative Christianity did lift me up and gave me some hope. It made me feel special. It also gave me an ego, a sense of undeserved self-righteousness, encouraged me to spend an indordinate amount of time, emotion and brain-power judging and alienating my neighbors and friends. It convinced me of He*ll for a while, an afterlife state that I still have an underlying irrational fear of despite having officially deciding to abandon the concept (in favor of a kind of Universalism where it does still exist, just not as something that God leaves people in forever, or – I very much consider the Annhiliationism that Corey believes in as a distinct possibility).

            When I first had my conversion-experience and joined a Baptist church, I got some good things out of it. I knew some wonderful people in my old church. (Including a doctor who clued me in on that the concept of Theistic Evolution wasn’t an enemy). I had people and a faith that helped me through my shaky teenage years, but… in the end, some things I just couldn’t maintain over the years.

            I got tired of judging my online friends for their LGBTQ status, for instance. And I actually found out that I’m not exactly “straight,” myself. (I’m not gay, either. I’m asexual, which is pretty weird, actually. We don’t really fit anywhere, but large tracts of the LGBTQ community do accept us while most straights don’t know we exist). I got tired of living in fear of a place that probably doesn’t exist, or at least not in perpetuity that would be compatible with a just Deity. I got really tired of everything being political and the “God wants you to vote Republican” spiel. Even when I was going to a church where most people believed that, when registering to vote, I registered as an Independent precisely because I didn’t think God had a political party and that I shouldn’t, either.

            Past me was suspicious of Liberal Christians. Current me is one. We stand on different sides of the field, looking at the same things, but from different perspectives.

            I regret a lot of my past mistakes, but I don’t regret everything. You probably don’t watch Bojack Horseman, but the final episode had a very sagely conversation between Bojack and another main character about how “some people come into your life and help you learn things, but they aren’t meant to be in your life forever.”

            I feel that way about conservative Christianity. It taught me some things I needed to know about myself, but it wasn’t meant to be in my life forever.

            and if I’m going to He*ll for that, so be it. Bring on the BBQ.

            1. God doesn’t have a political party. However, I’ve seen more political rhetoric from Christian liberals than Christian conservatives. Many of the Christian Left pages I’ve found on Facebook have more political posts than Christian posts.

              Christian liberals treat you like a satanist and judge you like crazy if you side against them on ANYTHING. They’re willing to sacrifice Faith in order to please the world.

              1. Must be why your mates on here want people they don’t like to leave America. Its why conservatives have to lie and troll liberal sites with their sanctimonious self righteous bs
                defending the Liar-in-Chief.

                Why are you even here?

                Do you think your stupidity and adoration of a liar is going to convert anyone?

                When did you sell you soul to Trump?

    2. “Death Panels” already exist and have for a long time. They are not a democratic political thing.

      They’re called for-profit health insurance companies and the boards thereof.

  12. Donald Trump wasn’t elected “because he convinced evangelicals to overlook 1001 reasons why a faithful Christian could never support him, and he did it by claiming to be “pro-life”.” He won because you and others on the left are so cringeworthy, hateful, judgmental, and ignorant, you make him look good in comparison. You make him look like the freaking Pope.

    Both he and Hillary were really flawed, but what decided it in the end was that one was willing to fight for Christians and the Faith, while the other was unwilling and sided with those who want people to be quiet about and diminish the importance of Faith.

    Lastly, it’s not pro-life if you’re willing to protect those already born, but refuse to protect the unborn.

        1. Yes you were manipulated.

          Trump fooled people like you.

          Incidentally it is people like you and your support for an egomaniac which is an attack on the Christian faith.

          1. No I wasn’t. Trump had no influence on how I came to my own conclusions.

            The people attacking the Christian faith are prayer bashers (both atheists and Christian liberals), people who push or threaten to push lawsuits regarding public Christian displays, and harass people for expressing their faith.

            1. Bahaha

              Poor conservatives are being persecuted by women having abortions and gays getting married.

              Yet you attack Christians who aren’t of your political persuasion.

              You not being allowed to bully others isn’t persecution, dopey.

              1. Doesn’t serve the people who didn’t vote for him right. Doesn’t serve the younger people who couldn’t vote (and some young people are dying for this) right. It doesn’t serve their older relatives right (not all old people are Trumpists. My Dad’s a lifelong Democrat, former union-man. Mom seems to hate Trump, too).

                If the virus is a judgement, it has bad aim. Too haphazard. Not hitting any particular political affiliation at all.

              2. Doesn’t serve the people who didn’t vote for him right. Doesn’t serve the younger people who couldn’t vote (and some young people are dying for this) right. It doesn’t serve their older relatives right (not all old people are Trumpists. My Dad’s a lifelong Democrat, former union-man. Mom seems to hate Trump, too).

                If the virus is a judgement, it has bad aim. Too haphazard. Not hitting any particular political affiliation at all.

                  1. That’s the aggravating thing about it.

                    Of course, the good citizens of my usual haunt, Slacktivist, are reminding everyone not to panic, because presidential approval bumps do happen as a matter of course during disasters (everyone’s scared, people look to leaders, even to bad ones), but that even with the approval-bump, he still hasn’t breached 50%.

                    This means that more than half the country (at least those polled) do dislike him / the job he is doing.

              1. You’ve taken that out of context. He meant don’t pray in public to seek attention for yourself. He didn’t say don’t pray in public at all. Jesus is talking about not seeking attention for yourself in the first few verses of Matthew 6.

                Jesus calls on us to be public with the Word and spreading the Good News.

                1. Seeking attention for yourself is exactly what you’re doing.

                  Just on Matthew 6, do you think he was lying when he said
                  24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.”

                  Not much of a capitalist that Jesus.

                  You are here and trolling this site to get attention. Thats the sole reason you are here.

                  What good news are you spreading by bending over for Trump and his lies?

                  Jesus would be really proud of you wouldn’t he.

                  Thats why he said you strain out a gnat and swallow a camel and it’s those who claim they see whose sin remains.

                  Here’s another one, the measure you judge others, is the measure you will be judged.

                  Not good news for you is it….

                  Ultimately we know you hate us, so f*** off.

  13. Modernity’s “Market Man” is Pro-Life for the life and health of the market and its products. As to “life, liberty, and happiness” Modern Man’s liberty is a freedom to buy and sell in a free market. This is the way to secure Market Man’s happiness. The life of the planet or of the people living on it that is a lesser concern. Meaning for Modern Man in his “disenchanted” world must be found in money and the things which it buys. In this Market Man’s life consists. Jesus might tell Modern Man to WATCH OUT
    Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions.” Luke 12:15
    “Modern man is alienated from himself, from his fellow human beings, and from nature. He has been transformed into a commodity, he experiences his life as an investment which must bring him the maximum profit obtainable under existing market conditions. His main aim is profitable exchange of his skills, knowledge, and of himself… Life has no goal, no satisfaction except the one to consume.”
    – Erich Fromm

    1. The lack of toilet paper, bread, hand sanitizer, and food rationing are examples of socialist living. I’ll take capitalism.

      1. Lol… That’s the capitalist mantra of supply and demand. People are buying everything up and selling it on ebay for big bucks.

        1. Under socialism, the toilet paper and bread ain’t coming back. Those store shelves will be empty for a very long time.

            1. No. More like panic and paranoia. Under capitalism, the shelves will be full again, while under socialism, it isn’t likely, much less guaranteed.

              1. Bahaha

                Who feeds you these lies?

                You need to stop watching Fox News dude.

                Maybe Cuba will send some of their doctors over to the US to help ya all out.

            1. While you can make your own bread, no one will be willing to use those things as substitutes for toilet paper.

        2. Partly yeah, partly no. I talked above about disruptions in the supply-chains causing quite a bit of this.

          I’ve heard, for instance, in addition to the “different grades of toilet paper” thing, that a lot American toilet paper comes from Canada (makes sense, paper milling industry), and since Canada has tightened up their boarder to keep us disease-ridden Americans from making the virus worse in their country (and Trump has tightened the border for his Trumpy reasons), some of that paper goods trade isn’t getting through as smoothly as it was just a few months ago.

          I am wondering how much of a shortage on certain fruits and vegetables we’ll have in the coming months. Working in the salad bar department / produce back room of a grocery store, I can tell you that a LOT of our cheaper produce comes from Mexico, Guatemala and Honduras. If we’re really tightening up the borders on trade and transport… that’s going to be a problem during certain growing seasons.

          1. Yes there’s than that. Then you have people seeing it as an opportunity.

            I’ve seen people here with their garages full of toilet paper and bottled water.

            1. And that guy in Tennessee who hoarded hand-sanitizer and tried to re-sell it at extorbitant prices until the state caught up to him, Amazon shut his little side-business down and he was essentially forced to donate it. People know who he is now and likely will never do business with him again.

      2. Actually, it’s capitalism run amok.

        Take people (of enough money at any given time that they can actually afford things), spook ’em into a hoarding for a few weeks mentality, and the empty shelves will happen.

        But it’s actually more complicated than that. A lot of the so-called “hoarding” is actually reasonable: since schools are closed and many people are working from home right now, they are eating more meals at home, using more toiletries at home…ad to that the “I don’t want to go to the store more than absolutely necessary in order to reduce my risk of exposure” and you do get people shopping for a two-month haul rather than weekly as they normally would.

        Also, supply-chains have been disrupted. I read an article regarding toilet paper in particular – consumer-grade TP is different than the stuff commonly used in public restrooms and isn’t sold on the same channels. The article also mentioned bananas – grocery store fruit vs. how they are packed and sold to schools and institutions.

        What you’re seeing is a mess largely caused by the Capitalist networks. Supply and demand, supply chains and various grades of goods for different channels.

        (Knows first-hand. Works at a grocery store – or was until my specific interior department was shut down for the time-being. Husband is an office supply manager and is seeing this stuff “on the front lines,” too).

        Also, I believe that you are thinking of Communism, not Socialism. They aren’t actually the same thing. A lot of people mistakenly believe they are because they aren’t good students of history.

        1. Socialism and communism are one in the same in a way. Socialism is HIV and communism is AIDS. So I’m correct.

          Yes, the shelves are currently empty because of panic buying, but under socialism, the shelves will always be empty. Don’t defend/justify socialism.

          1. You said that before and it was stupid then.

            Capitalism is EBOLA. Socialism is a reaction against rampant capitalism eg the industrial revolution.

            The number 10 is obviously your IQ.

    2. Why don’t you identify the Socialist paradise you reside in so that the Socialists over here in the US can come live in your country?

      1. Try Sweden and Norway. The US is nowhere near the top. Capitalism is a greed driven system that takes money from its people to give to the rich via tax breaks and subsidies.

          1. Well, you’ve been misled into believe that corporate capitalism is somehow good for society. Socialism takes taxes and spends it on the people. Capitalism takes taxes and gives it to make the rich richer. Communism is not socialism. Don’t confuse the two.

            1. It impossible to confuse the two. Socialism has failed in every country that tried it causing enormous suffering and death; latest Venezuela. Some highlights of the latest experiment:

              “Instead, the mass starvation and exodus faced by Venezuelans are the natural consequence of the socialist policies implemented by dictators Hugo Chavez and Nicolas Maduro.

              There are three main policies implemented by Chavez since 1999 that produced the current crisis: Widespread nationalization of private industry, currency and price controls, and the fiscally irresponsible expansion of welfare programs.

              :…the government increased payrolls and gave away products at low cost, resulting in days-long countrywide blackouts, frequent water service interruptions, falling oil production, and bankrupt government enterprises.”

              Why would you want to do this in any country? What is the motivation to destroy another society?

            2. How is that Socialism working out for those in Venezuela? Do you think those in Venezuela eating out of garbage trucks would rather live there or live in the USA?

                1. You have to have a definition of “true socialism” in your mind. Please give me your definition of true Socialism and the country where it is successfully practiced.

                2. LOL. It’s NEVER a True Scotsma—er, socialism.

                  Of course, back when it looked like it worked, we were hearing all about how socialist it was….

              1. How’s rampant capitalism working for ya?

                You know those free markets which are supposed to save everyone?

                BTW how well has capitalism been doing in Latin America.

                There’s a reason why people turn to socialism in those countries.

                Because US crony capitalism was an abject failure.

              2. Venezuela, Russia, North Korea, Turkey and China are autocracies which is exactly what Trump is attempting to institute, first by destroying the facts researched, edited and published by the fourth estate in favor of his always “perfect” “alternative facts”. You are duped by your un-Christlike conservative religion and by the lying con destroying the credibility of the presidency of the United States of America. Sucker, you take us all down with you by your ignorant vote!!!

                1. You lied Herm!

                  I told you that you didn’t have me blocked. Here you are replying to me. You lied Herm, and you blasphemed God when you said that the Bible is not the word of God. You are NOT a Christian Herm. You are a fraud!

                  Your own words Herm –

                  Herm darel • 5 days ago • edited
                  The Bible isn’t the word of God, it is a testimony of mankind’s relationship with God as each author could bear.

                  1. And it isn’t. It’s the words and opinions of humans from over 2000 years ago.

                    Why are you accusing Herm when you vote for and follow a Liar?

                    Thats how hypocritical you people are and you reveal yourself to be complete frauds while you sit around and congratulate your own self righteousness.

                    Your Christianity is barren and worthless, devoid of truth and honesty.

                    You have learned nothing and sold yourself to one.whose lies bring death.

                  2. Herm and Bones are only interested in provocation. Both use strange views and half truths to excite replies. I still believe that Bones is in an asylum in Australia with revocable computer privileges.

                    1. Bones provokes because he is the real deal. Bones is an open, in your face super heathen. One would have to be of the same ilk to agree with anything he wrote.

                      Herm, is worse, because he actually believes he is some spiritual leader. Herm is a false teacher who will suffer the greater wrath of God because he leads others astray. Bones influences or deceives nobody. Herm cites Scriptures, which are the word of God, and then goes to great lengths saying crazy things unrelated to the to the word of God he cites. I suspect past and heavy drug abuse.

                      All liberals, leftists, Socialists, Democrats etc. have contempt for the Scriptures. Few will admit that. Herm is such a sanctimonious fraud and so full of himself that he actually thought that he could deny that the Bible is the word of God and get away with it.

                    2. Lol, it’s funny having hypocrites who don’t know the Word of God from their arse, telling everyone how much they hate them.

                      The sanctimonious fraud is you.

                      A shame there isn’t a hell for people like you.

            3. It impossible to confuse the two. Socialism has failed in every country that tried it causing enormous suffering and death; latest Venezuela. Some highlights of the latest experiment:

              “Instead, the mass starvation and exodus faced by Venezuelans are the natural consequence of the socialist policies implemented by dictators Hugo Chavez and Nicolas Maduro.

              There are three main policies implemented by Chavez since 1999 that produced the current crisis: Widespread nationalization of private industry, currency and price controls, and the fiscally irresponsible expansion of welfare programs.

              :…the government increased payrolls and gave away products at low cost, resulting in days-long countrywide blackouts, frequent water service interruptions, falling oil production, and bankrupt government enterprises.”

              Why would you want to do this in any country? What is the motivation to destroy another society?

              1. What happened in Venezuela was more like badly managed communism, not socialism. And it was done to win votes, not help people. Are you, by the way, going to turn down your check from the government? That “economic stimulus” is socialism!

                1. No it is just the normal progression of socialism and it is evil.
                  I have many employees who are a paycheck away from disaster. They need help as this was not their fault. The checks are based on tax returns and adjusted for income level. You can’t stop the check if you tried. You can’t return it but you could give it away. However, I will believe it when I see it.

            4. That’s weird because rampant capitalism ie globalism and global markets is what is shutting down us industry and the government has to either apply tariffs, subsidise (socialism) or give the big stick to, like trump has done.

            5. Under socialism, you don’t get anything in return. Plus, the two are one and the same in a way.

              Socialism is HIV and communism is AIDS. You’re the one who has been misled. People who defend something like socialism are as bad as socialism itself.

            6. are you a serious student of history? The reality is that power corrupts and total power corrupts totally…..give the power to the state and whatever they give they can take…worse, those at the top ALWAYS have what they want

              1. You are still talking about communism. Norway and Sweden are socialist countries, and far more democratic than the US. By giving Trump so much power, we have allowed capitalist corporations to rule our country to our detriment.

                1. You must be a Bernie and Ocrazy Cortes supporter. But consider this, most in the Democrat party SAY they oppose his positions on Socialism.

                  Since you brought up education to me, I offer some education for you. You are most welcome.

                  Why Bernie Sanders Is Wrong About Sweden – WSJwww.wsj.com › Opinion › The Weekend Interview
                  Aug 23, 2019 – The ‘Nordic model’ of socialism, which he and other leftists tout, is more … overtook the country’s dominant center-left Social Democratic Party.

                  Dear Bernie Sanders: Sweden’s democratic socialism …www.seattletimes.com › opinion › dear-bernie-sanders-swedens-democr…
                  Mar 10, 2020 – Dear Bernie Sanders: Sweden’s democratic socialism depends on robust … believe, Sweden is one of the most capitalist countries on Earth.

                  Swedish Ex-Prime Minister Rebukes Bernie: Socialism Only …mises.org › power-market › swedish-ex-prime-minister-rebukes-berni…
                  Especially because he still calls himself a Democratic Socialist while using Nordic countries as examples of what he defends. Thankfully, political figures from …

                  Sorry Bernie Bros But Nordic Countries Are Not Socialistwww.forbes.com › sites › jeffreydorfman › 2018/07/08 › sorry-berni…
                  Jul 8, 2018 – A common response from the left is that socialism (or democratic socialism) works just fine in Sweden, Norway, and Denmark. It is certainly true …

                  Democratic Socialist Countries 2020 – World Population Reviewworldpopulationreview.com › countries › democratic-socialist-countries
                  Feb 17, 2020 – However, Sweden is not a “pure” socialist country. It has a free-market economy with very few government regulations, something that is a …

                  Bernie Sanders is wrong on democratic socialism in Sweden …www.nbcnews.com › think › opinion › bernie-sanders-wrong-democr…
                  Mar 15, 2020 – For proof, he points to Scandinavian countries like Sweden. Sanders’ argument takes as its starting point the perception that the Scandinavian “ …

                  Native Swede Debunks Myth of Nordic Countries as Socialistwww.dailysignal.com › 2019/07/26 › native-of-scandinavia-debunks-…
                  Jul 26, 2019 – “Whatever you think about Sweden and what we did, you have to … Some point to Nordic countries as democratic socialism in action, but some …

                  The Myth of Nordic Socialism – Barron’swww.barrons.com › articles › the-myth-of-nordic-socialism-51554296401
                  Apr 3, 2019 – Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and other Scandinavian countries may … but the dream of a “democratic socialism” based on the Nordic model.

                  Why Democratic Socialists Can’t Legitimately Claim Sweden …www.heritage.org › international-economies › commentary › why-de…
                  Aug 10, 2018 – First, these countries are not technically socialist. Second, the success of these countries is clearly based on a capitalist foundation, and it …

              2. Our “young people” or the Bernie Boys are infatuated with self delusion. The bigger question is with all the hype and support how did the Democrats end up with two old white guys out of that large field. But more directly:

                from Barron’s
                The conclusion: Why should countries like the United Kingdom or the U.S. make the same mistake as the Swedes did in the 1970s? Sweden’s “democratic socialism” with high taxes, redistribution and high state regulation has failed, and the young people who are today enthusiastic about the ideas of Bernie Sanders should draw lessons from the experiences of Sweden and other Nordic countries.

            7. Contrary to what Sanders and his supporters might believe, Sweden is one of the most capitalist countries on Earth. It boasts strong property rights and allows big profits for several internationally competitive firms. In fact, Sweden has the most billionaires per capita, far outpacing China and the United States. This is because it allows goods and services to be allocated via prices. The state does not own firms or banks and, in fact, did not bail out banks during the early 1990s banking crisis, or Saab motors when it went bankrupt. The same cannot be said about the United States after the 2008 financial crisis.

              https://www.seattletimes.com/opinion/dear-bernie-sanders-swedens-democratic-socialism-depends-on-robust-capitalism/

              1. okay, you got me darel, you do know that the president that took us into the “great recession” was conservative, don’t you? You probably don’t remember who took us out into the longest economic rise in the history of the United States of America, do you, because he was a Black Democrat who taught University level Constitutional Law? Sweden does have, as a socialist constitutional right, education and healthcare for all.

                1. You lied!

                  I told you that you didn’t have me blocked. Here you are replying to me. You lied Herm, and you blasphemed God when you said that the Bible is not the word of God. You are NOT a Christian Herm. You are a fraud!

                  Your own words Herm –

                  Herm darel • 5 days ago • edited
                  The Bible isn’t the word of God, it is a testimony of mankind’s relationship with God as each author could bear.

                  1. Fmd aren’t you a sanctimonious twat.

                    You don’t give a rats about the Bible, whether it’s the Word of God or not.

                    Why are you accusing Herm when you vote for and follow a Liar?

                    Thats how hypocritical you people are and you reveal yourself to be complete frauds while you sit around and congratulate your own self righteousness.

                    Your Christianity is barren and worthless, devoid of truth and honesty.

                    You have learned nothing and sold yourself to one.whose lies bring death.

            1. Please give me your definition of democratic socialism and then
              educate me where your definition of democratic socialism is successfully practiced.

                1. It is going to take more than that to get our Socialists to leave the USA. I wish you had something to entice them other than a flu shot.

                  1. No one’s going anywhere in case you haven’t heard.
                    You can come over when this clears up if you’re still alive. (doubtful)
                    Trump said our health system was so much better than yours.

                    Well done socialism.

                    Better than the USA at half the cost per person.

                    1. Lol… But… But… Free health care is communism….

                      You are the most ingenuous person on here.

                      No wonder you’re such a coward.

                  1. Lol…
                    See the conservatives more worried about money than saving peoples lives.

                    Hey when you get this virus it’s not going to give a f**k about your bank balance. And your insurance policy won’t save you when there’s stuff all beds and respirators.

                    1. Bone you can’t be as stupid as you appear to be. I don’t have much of a bank account but I enjoy work and personal responsibility–seems it does much for human flourishing. You would do well to seek to flourish and act responsibly.

                    2. Enjoy your work and personal responsibility while you’re in lockdown or if you get sick you might be lucky to get a hospital bed.

                      The stupidity of Americans like you is going to cause a disaster.

              1. Ffs how stupid are Americans

                Try looking at Europe and Australia where most countries have the basics of free health care which people like yourself would rather your loved ones die.

                Thats probably why Trump said our health care system is so much better than yours.

                1. I have friends in Europe….their story is not yours. and “if everyone jumped off a mountain you would be wise not to do so”

                  1. Nearly a thousand dead in Italy yesterday.

                    Why do you think most of the world is in lockdown?

                    Just ignore it Everitt, you’ll be fine…..

        1. So, you live off others. Let’s hope Herm, Lucas, and Michtou quickly leave the USA and come to your Socialist paradise.
          You could list more ways that you live off others in order to entice them.

            1. Bones will be keeping himself safe while you die enraged at Leftists.

              You can always move over here Bob.

              I mean Trump said how much better our free health care system is compared to yours.

          1. Bahaha my country provides for its citizens. A shame yours doesn’t. Hey when you get coronavirus and they don’t have enough respirators and hospital beds for you, tell us then how good capitalism is.

              1. Yeah 800 deaths a day in Italy and Spain is empty talk. The USA will be worse and has less medical facilities then both countries.
                Covid doesn’t care about your politics, religion or nationality.

      2. Unfortunately, I do not have the money to move to any of the Scandinavian countries or even to another state right now.

        I’m literally trapped in this H*e*ll*hole of a country that I was raised to think of as the “Greatest Country on Earth.”

        I dislike America, but I cannot leave it. If you would be willing to pay for my way out, I’d love to arrange it.

            1. Yes, I do want you Socialists out of the country.

              You are the one in a corner. You either refused to work and save or you squandered your money, and now like most Socialists you want a handout from a Capitalist. You reap what you sow.

              1. Trump’s doing a pretty good job of socialism.

                Like a true Conservative you just want hand outs for the rich.

              2. I have worked and I do work. Probably harder than you.

                But you aren’t worth playing with anymore. I knew I as playing with a troll when I first responded to you, but I always get a bit bored after a while. Pearls before swine and all that.

                  1. What’s that in English?

                    And do you really think we would touch your cult with a 10 foot pole.

                    You trolls just remind me what we hate about your religion.

                    The ignorance, the lies, the self righteousness, the hypocrisy, the sectarianism…

                    Jesus said about you, you strain out a gnat and swallow a camel.

        1. I think you may be confusing your present circumstances with your future. Perhaps talking to someone who knows you could help you see that your future here is unlimited and it is nearer than you think.

            1. At least my dad actually loved me. Would rather have blue-collar dad of principles who loved me than rich dad who didn’t.

              I’m not overly afraid of dying…but I really don’t want to do it from something as painful as drowning in myself. Doesn’t sound fun.

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