Benjamin L. Corey

Benjamin L. Corey

BLC is an author, speaker, scholar, and global traveler, who holds graduate degrees in Theology & Intercultural Studies from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, and received his doctorate in Intercultural Studies from Fuller. He is the author of Undiluted: Rediscovering the Radical Message of Jesus, and Unafraid: Moving Beyond Fear-Based Faith.

10 Signs You’re Actually Following TRUMPianity Instead of CHRISTianity

Are you following Jesus, or following Trump? Here's an easy way to tell:

In the Era of Trump’s America, I must admit that I hardly recognize the very people who raised me. I was brought up by the Religious Right, and went on to become a faithful foot soldier for the cause of conservative Christianity and right-wing politics until my mid 30’s. However, long gone is their commitment to the values they tried to instill in me, and so much else that once consistently encompassed their collective identity.

Sadly, my old tribe seems to collectively struggle to realize they’ve done exactly what they spent the entire Left Behind series warning me not to do: they have fallen in line behind a worldly leader who arose to power during a time of “wars and rumors of wars,” who did so by falsely pretending to be a Christian, but who would ultimately lead them to follow an entirely new religion.

To help my former right-wing family out, here’s the top 10 signs you’re now following TRUMPianity instead of CHRISTianity:

10. You spent 8 years criticizing every move of Obama, but the minute Trump was sworn in you started telling everyone that “Christians should respect the president” and that being “divisive” is a sin.

 

Remember the you of two years ago? That’s okay, because I do– and you certainly didn’t seem to believe that Christians should “respect the president” or that being politically divisive was any sort of sin.

Here I am recalling you taught me that, “sin is always sin” and doesn’t change just because culture changes. Huh!

9. You think, “but we’re a nation of laws” somehow trumps biblical teachings on how immigrants are to be treated.

 

You didn’t expect me to forget all of those years where you taught me that the Bible is the “final authority for all matters of living,” did you?

Good, because I didn’t– but it certainly sounds like you did. I’m reminded every time you dismiss what the Bible teaches about the treatment of immigrants with, “But, but… we’re a nation of laws!”

I thought you’d said, “We have a responsibility to follow God’s law, not man’s law!” just a few weeks ago. Silly me!

8. Your church is planning a “patriotic worship service” for the 4th of July.

 

Let me simplify this for you: there’s no such thing as “patriotic worship” unless you’re willing to simply admit you’re worshipping your own country.

You were the ones who taught me that if God isn’t the focal point of our worship, that it’s sinful idolatry. Surely you remember Jesus saying, “It is written: worship the Lord your God and serve him only”?

Apparently there’s now room for two. Strange!

7. You instinctively applaud when Trump threatens to “bomb the shit” out of people, but quickly push back if someone quotes what Jesus taught about violence and enemy love.

 

Jesus commanded we love our enemies, and that we never repay evil with evil but instead repay evil with good. I mean, it’s right there in the red words. I still have it underlined from 1984.

But now when I quote that in response to your thinking that it’s all cute when Trump wants to “knock the crap” out of a protestor or nuke a country, you tell me that I’m twisting scripture.

Sorry, but I think siding with Trump over Jesus is… as Trump would say: Sad!

6. You think that having a filthy mouth and boasting about sexual immorality is a sign of being unsaved, but when it comes to Trump you all of a sudden have a “Who am I to judge?” attitude.

 

I mean, c’mon. I grew up under your guidance and I think we both know that neither one of us ever thought we’d see the day when you became an advocate of not judging. You told me that if I had sex before marriage or used the F-word that it would be evidence I was never saved to begin with.

Doesn’t it seem odd to you that it was Trump, and not Jesus who got you to (selectively) soften up on the whole judging others thing? Interesting!

5. You think it’s God-honoring to refuse to bow to a national statue, but that you should be fired from your job, kicked out of the country, or even charged with treason for refusing to stand for the flag.

 

Let me get this straight: When everyone obeyed the king and bowed down to the national statue and Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego refused– under the pain of death– to pledge their allegiance to anyone except God, they were the good guys of the story…

But fast forward to present day America, and the good guys are actually the ones who want to force everyone to pay respect to the national symbol? Plot twist!

4. You want the nation to return to “biblical values”… except for all those socialist sounding biblical things like caring for the poor, welcoming the stranger, giving food to the hungry, etc.

 

So you really want the nation to return to “biblical values”? You do realize that when Israel lived under God’s law (which you love to quote when talking of same sex marriage) also included laws that mandated the rich be taxed, even down to the food they had, and that the wealth was to be redistributed to the poor and immigrants, yes?

Or is this the one situation where you’d rather not remember that you keep saying, “But God’s law never changes”? Confused!

3. Your church spends one month a year celebrating the story of refugee family who fled their violent homeland and secretly crossed the border to safety, only to return home years later where their son became another unarmed person of color killed by the state’s violent security forces because they “felt threatened”…

 

Yet you spend 11 months of the year missing the obvious. Ironic! 

2. You claimed Barack Obama’s election was the result of evil forces, but the minute Trump was sworn into office you started quoting verses about how “God picks a nation’s kings and queens.”

 

For real, how does this work? Did God only get involved and start deciding elections with the past election cycle, or did you just start quoting this verse after the black guy left?

There’s a lot in this world I don’t know, but I do happen to know the answer to *that* one. Easy!

1. You spent the 90’s saying “character counts” but now say, “We don’t vote for a national pastor.”

 

Ahh, my absolute favorite sign you’re following Trumpianity instead of Christianity.

Version of you from today, I’d like you to meet the version of you from the Clinton administration. You were supposedly so morally outraged that you coined the term, “Character Counts” to explain why you felt Clinton was unfit for office.

The version of you from today? My, my… as I listen to you explain that “We don’t vote for a national pastor…” I am keenly aware of how having the political power changes things. Totally!

So you’re a loyal Trump supporter and a loyal Christian?

I’m not so sure.

You might want to take a more self-critical look and make sure you’re following Christianity, and not Trumpianity. Really!

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It's not the end of the world, but it's pretty #@&% close. Trump's America & Franklin Graham's Christianity must be resisted.

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Benjamin L. Corey

BLC is a cultural anthropologist, public theologian, writer, speaker, global traveler, and tattoo collector. He is a two-time graduate of Gordon-Conwell with graduate degrees in Theology & Intercultural Studies, and went on to receive his doctorate in Intercultural Studies from Fuller. He is the author of Unafraid: Moving Beyond Fear-Based Faith, and Undiluted: Rediscovering the Radical Message of Jesus. In addition to his blog, Formerly Fundie, his work has been regularly featured by a wide array of media outlets such as TIME magazine and CNN, among others.

BLC

Benjamin L. Corey

BLC is a cultural anthropologist, public theologian, writer, speaker, global traveler, and tattoo collector. He is a two-time graduate of Gordon-Conwell with graduate degrees in Theology & Intercultural Studies, and went on to receive his doctorate in Intercultural Studies from Fuller. He is the author of Unafraid: Moving Beyond Fear-Based Faith, and Undiluted: Rediscovering the Radical Message of Jesus. In addition to his blog, Formerly Fundie, his work has been regularly featured by a wide array of media outlets such as TIME magazine and CNN, among others.

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  • For those that think socialism is a 4 letter word, think about our roads, police, fire, schools, military, government, post office, Medicaid, etc…we all pay taxes, and the government turns around and decides what to pay for in regards to everything I listed. I don’t complain about the semis that use the roads way more than I do, or that the national guard will be sent in to help people displaced by hurricanes, or that the neighbors have called the police multiple times, or the fire dept raced to put out a fire. The government is here to do a job for the good of the people, not to pick and choose who gets tax breaks, and who should be able to afford health care, schools, and groceries. The churches do a lot for their people but not everyone goes to church, do they? Therefore, since we all pay taxes…property, income, and sales, there should be multiple ways to spread the wealth to the people, and the government could do a much better job of taking care of all it’s people, not just the wealthy.

  • It is too bad when one assumes that all “Christians” are like someone who calls themselves Christian. It is also sad when someone judges others while condemning those who he thinks have judged others. That is called hypocrisy.

  • Donald Trump has apparently replaced Satan, the monster under the bed, the crazy old guy who told you scary stories when you were a kid, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Charles Manson, Richard Nixon……and on and on. You ‘progressives’ crack me up!

  • Wow. This one certainly evoked a LOT of responses. My reaction- personally I’m completely sick and tired of Christians and their political nonsense. They are so very ready to believe the worst of any Democrat with no more proof than “it was posted on Facebook”. Ugh. Priorities are so completely screwed up. Like the old Wendy’s commercials with the little old lady who asked “Where’s the beef?” I want to know “Where’s the love?” This ridiculous political mindset reveals nothing more than a distressing lack of faith AND love. Let’s post something nasty on social media about a Democrat and watch all the Christians make complete idiots out of themselves!! And I was a conservative republican until I saw the incredible hypocrisy. The world is laughing at us. Priorities, people!! They will know we are Christians by our love, not our political affiliation, idiotically judgmental attitudes, fear of liberals and certainly not by believing everything that gets posted on stinking Facebook. Please read The Myth of a Christian Nation by Gregory Boyd, and quit being so incredibly gullible and judgmental. By the way, great article!!

  • 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 (NIV)

    9) “The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie,

    10) and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

    11) For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie

    12) and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.”

    TЯ卐mp is the “lawless one” … the Beast, and those who support, condone, or defend him wear the Mark of the Beast
    because they have:

    • chosen allegiance to the Beast instead of Christ.
    • chosen to believe the Beast instead of Christ.
    • chosen to follow the Beast instead of Christ.
    • chosen to obey the Beast instead of Christ.
    • chosen to worship the Beast instead of Christ!
    • chosen to accept the Beast’s LIES instead of Christ’s Truth!

    If it’s not already too late, I urge each and every Christian, especially Evangelicals, who still support TЯ卐mp, to immediately renounce the Beast and repent! Return now to your Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

  • He most definitely has been obnoxious at times! I don’t worship him or defend a leader’s lack of tact. However, what Jesus taught about violence and enemy love is not what the culture teaches to deflect wrongdoing and evade personal responsibility.

      • I’m not scared of illegals, I’m sick of the illegal invasion, dolt! What don’t you understand about the concept of people coming to America legally? No other nation in the world would tolerate what Americans have to endure with you ignorant people. Common sense and logic elude you!!!!!

        • “I’m not scared of illegals,”
          – Yeah, sure

          “I’m sick of the illegal invasion, dolt!”
          – Illegal immigration is currently at a historic low, dolt!

          “What
          don’t you understand about the concept of people coming to America
          legally?”
          – Oh I understand the situation fine, For decades American capitalists have been welcoming people from the southern nations on temporary work visas as a cheap source of labor. Then Saint Ronald of Reagan ended the program on the pretense of preserving jobs for Americans, jobs like field labor and ditch digging which Americans did not want. It was conservatives who created this “crisis.”

          “No other nation in the world would tolerate what Americans have
          to endure with you ignorant people.”
          – You claim to be a Christian. Let’s see what your Bible says about welcoming foreigners.
          https://www.openbible.info/topics/welcoming_strangers
          Wow. it looks like you are ignorant of the Bible you claim to revere as a Christian

          “Common sense and logic elude
          you!!!!!”
          – If saying that makes you feel like a brave widdle Christian, then you just go ahead.

          • David, you are too stupid to waste my time trying to educate you on the truth. But here it goes for the last time:1) No, immigration isn’t at an all time low. It’s on the rise again. Obama cut our border patrols in half and thousands more illegals were coming across our borders undetected. 2) Don’t blame Reagan. He wanted to close the border but Democrats didn’t want him to. So they promised Reagan they would close the border if he would give the present illegals amnesty. After Reagan left office Democrats reneged on their promise. https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128303672 3) Christians are commanded by God to help the needy and most Christians do. However, that doesn’t mean our government should allow wide open uncontrolled illegal immigration. Our government is in place to protect us and provide security for our nation. How can we have a sovereign nation with wide open borders? What’s going to eventually happen? Do you have a clue? Do you suggest we always have open borders indefinitely and never close them? How can America support the whole world, dumb ass!!!! 4) Capitalism made America the greatest nation in the world. Any one who supports socialism is totally ignorant of how socialism hasn’t ever worked and has always been a complete failure. I stand by my previous comment: “Common sense and logic elude you!!!!!”

        • In fact you’re enduring NOTHING! This is all bigotry, stirred up by Faux News, et al. Illegal immigrants contribute to this country, in total, with their cheap labor diligently performed, more work than YOU could ever do.

          Me, I’m a fast fruit picker. You? You’d faint.

          YOU are the problem with this country, not the illegal immigrants coming here out of desperation, fleeing situations largely created by U$A govt and corporate policies… oh but that’s far too much analytical thinking for you.

    • Is your name supposed to mean “sanity”? The word is “sanidad”, though it does not exactly correspond to its English cognate in meaning.

      I suppose it is not necessary that I point out the humor in your use of that title.

  • Looking at some of these comments, I’m amazed at the verbal and mental gymnastics some “Christians” will go to so they don’t have to love their neighbors as Jesus commanded them. Why not just admit you don’t want to help anyone, and that you’re in it for yourself, and be done with it?

    This is why Christianity is dying.

    • Christians do more to help people than our government. Christians help people in need but don’t give them a life line to never succeed that’s passed down to generations. Socialism via governments destroys people’s initiative to help themselves. They become dependent on the government to take away from those who produce and give it to people who don’t. Soon the producers quit producing! Total Marxism! Why can’t you people learn from history? Socialism has always been a complete failure and will continue to fail. Venezuela is a perfect example.

    • Sadly, this pastor concurs — “By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another” (John 13:35) — implying everyone will know we are NOT disciples if we fail to love each other …

  • Why are people wasting their time with Bob Shilo?

    It’s clear that trumpism is a cult.

    And you can’t reason with cultists.

    Bob’s trolling and doesn’t give a shit what you think.

  • The supposedly righteous Left who savagely murders almost 2000 babies 24/7, 201,650 this year alone and sells their body parts to the highest bidder. and has murdered over 60 million babies since Roe vs Wade. The righteous Left who voted for a Muslim president who mocks God and praises Allah, The righteous Left who supports a president who allowed perverted men into women’s restrooms. The righteous Left who denied God in their 2012 DNC 3 times. The righteous left who took God out of our schools and allowed the 5 Pillars of Islam to be taught in our schools. The righteous Left who supports LGBT lifestyles and are now promoting paedophilia. I could go on but it would fill a book. I believe you Godless liberal loons might get the picture but I doubt it.

    • I had hoped, foolishly I know, that I would not see ignorance like this again on these boards. Read and weep yourself….

      “The supposedly righteous Left who savagely murders almost 2000 babies 24/7, 201,650 this year alone and sells their body parts to the highest bidder. and has murdered over 60 million babies since Roe vs Wade.”

      When Roe vs Wade became law, the vote in the Supreme court was 7 to 2. Of those 7, 5 were appointed by Republicans, so no, it was not the “Savage Left” who implemented it. You mentioned Google somewhere else…. Well use Google to educate yourself about the “selling of body parts to the highest bidder.” You seem to think this is a normal practice… that just ain’t so.

      “The righteous Left who voted for a Muslim president who mocks God and praises Allah, The righteous Left who supports a president who allowed perverted men into women’s restrooms.”

      Good grief… President Obama was not a Muslim. He was and remains a high character, decent family man, a Christian married and devoted to one woman, quite unlike the serial adulterer/sexual predator who currently inhabits the white house. As far as restrooms, those “perverts” have been in your restrooms all along. Get over it.

      “The righteous Left who denied God in their 2012 DNC 3 times.”

      Again, use Google and try to understand what really happened. It was not as bad as all that.

      “The righteous left who took God out of our schools and allowed the 5 Pillars of Islam to be taught in our schools.”

      My goodness, when and where was God taken out of our schools, as if He could be. Do you mean to tell me your little children cannot pray in school? Our society is secular. Our government is democratic, not theocratic. Schools have to educate all the little children, the Christians, the Muslims, the heathens, the Hindus, the Buddhists, the atheists, and so on. Our society is very diverse. All kinds of religion are talked about in our schools, so is evolution. You want to live in a theocratic society? Then convert to Islam and move to the middle east, or start your own.

      “The righteous Left who supports LGBT lifestyles and are now promoting paedophilia.”

      There is no such thing as an LBGT “lifestyle”. Is your heterosexual orientation a lifestyle? When did you choose to be straight? Every reputable medical institution I can name now agrees, homosexuality occurs naturally and is immutable. Every gay reparative institution that ever existed is now closed in recognition of that fact. Sure, we do not yet know the causes, there may be multiple, that does not mean one day we won’t know. In the meantime these people deserve to be treated as equals in our society. Promoting paedophilia? Really? Where do you get this stuff? There is no link… none, between homosexuality and paedophilia. They are not even close to the same thing. The only people promoting paedophilia might be the Catholic church.

      Somehow, I feel your ignorance could fill a book, but I will still offer some well-intentioned advice. Educate yourself… wherever you are getting these ideas, whether it be your friends, your family, your pastor, Breibart, Focus on the Family, Faux News, Family Research Council, et al, try to broaden your knowledge. These institutions are biased, and yes, there can be bias on the other side too. Don’t settle for what your tickling ears want to hear. You might find that you are more calm and less fearful…. or you can simply choose to remain ignorant.

        • Accusing the LGBT community and politically left individuals (including myself) of supporting pedophilia, when we actually oppose it; accusing Obama of mocking the god he believes in and of allowing men into women’s washrooms.

          I cannot and will not forgive libels like that.

          • In fact all you have to do is google LGBT and paedophelia and you get “scientists” saying paedophelia is just like being “born” gay or straight.

            All are born straight and it is sin through external circumstances which turn people into other sexual desires

          • Pedophiles — who can be of any sexual orientation — are committing a crime by violating the rights of other individuals when they act on their desires. An adult LGBT couple in a consensual relationship is not violating anyone else’s rights.

            And no, people are not all “born straight.” That is ridiculous.

          • Yes but some LGBT “scientists” are saying paedophelia is something you are “born with” so his statement is partially correct.

            People are definitely born straight. Science proves this. This is why 99% of people are straight. But we know the LGBT activitists want to reduce this percentage hence they confuse school children and some are trying the gay thang!

          • Could you kindly link me to a peer-reviewed medical journal that supports the claim “People are definitely born straight”? (I have access to a medical library, so kindly provide the citation in standard form with title, author, journal, year of publication, etc.)

          • Well certainly Obama mocks God and the the whole transgender thing is evil and does allow men to use womens bathroom. That is LGBT to a core!

          • A transgender person who mentally identifies as female *is* female, as far as I am concerned.

            I really don’t care what genitalia the person in the next bathroom stall has, as I am not in the habit of peeking under walls.

          • No that female has a mental illness and should be treated as such and healed.

            People are born male or female. There are no other combinations.

            Your comment about genitalia shows you have no argument

          • Are you a registered psychologist or psychiatrist? If not, I gently suggest that you do not attempt to diagnose a mental illness. Even a registered therapist would want to meet an individual in a clinical setting before diagnosing them.

      • Astreja, may I direct you to the 5th Commandment “Thou shalt not kill”. The Godless, baby killing, socialistic, communistic, Islamic Democrat Party has supported Abortion since Roe vs Wade in 1973. Obama did mock God and the Bible and has praised Allah on numerous occasions. Obama even had an Islamic prayer room set up in the White House for him and his Islamic appointees to have prayers on Fridays. Obama stopped having Christian prayers at the White House. Research the 2012 DNC and watch the video. They denied God three times. Do your own research if you don’t believe me on the. As a Christian I don’t lie and everything I wrote is the absolute truth. Sto being in denial and research the truth and stop listening to the fake news media. If you don’t believe my statistics on abortion research abortion in America in 2017 and you’ll find the truth. Note: Just because our evil government passed the 14th Amendment to legalize abortions does not mean God approves. All babies are created by God the moment it is conceived because God allowed for it to be conceived. Period. Jeremiah 1:5 ESV “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you. God Bless you!

  • So now that Trump is doing his best to destroy US alliances and not defend countries in Europe which may be attacked (because Putin), does that mean my country won’t be sending any of my family to fight America’s shitty wars eg my uncle in Vietnam and nephew in Afghanistan?

    Oh and you can p*ss your bases off from my country too if you’re not going to help defend it.

  • Thank you, Ben. You are a positive prophetic voice in every Biblical sense. Your message needs to be heard loud and clear. The moral and theological inconsistency of Evangelical America is a stunning phenomenon to watch. American Evangelicalism has lost all credibility as a Christian expression. I never thought I would see this unfolding so quickly and so dramatically.

    • Prophets are sent by God to warn the people. Exactly who is Ben warning? The people reading this blog? What is the warning? That the American Evangelicals are calling out the Progressive Liberals?

      • No Bob, Steve means white evangelicals like you are worshiping false political idols — get some sleep, willya?

        • Sorry. White/Black is just another Progressive construct aimed at dividing the country. There is no White/Black issue in this country. That era is over and we need to get past it. If I had to judge between Evangelicals or Progressives I would look at their works not their words. Baby killers would not do well.

          • SHAME ON YOU, Bob — 1) Jesus is NOT a Republican … 2) destructive and FALSE words like yours above are hurting the church in America …

          • I’m still in shock over, “There is no White/Black issue in this country. That era is over and we need to get past it.”

          • So do you have a problem with specifically “Black power” Bob, or just people of color in general sharing power in our democracy? — because Jesus was a person of color too …

          • I have a problem with Progressives calling anyone who they oppose “Racist” and with Progressives who enslave Blacks by telling them they cannot compete and need help to survive trying to preserve a permanent underclass.

          • If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and looks like a duck, chances are it’s a f***ing duck.

            In the Trump world, it’s a lobster.

          • “I have a problem with Progressives calling anyone who they oppose ‘Racist’. “

            They don’t. But they might to someone who makes racist statements.

          • White guilt and Black power are the two sides of the same issue. There is no problem in this country. It is shamelessly promoted by Black Power brokers like Sharpton and Jackson and Booker for personal gain.

          • SHAME ON YOU, Bob — speaking as a pastor, let every non-Christian reading this understand that Bob Shiloh’s opinions belong only to a latently racist fringe element of American Christianity.

          • See, “Racist” is the tag line of true Progressive who cannot debate the facts. This label is used to prevent White people from speaking out about the horrible job Progressives have done in the large cities they control. Well guess what, that tag is for you!

          • The Church in America has hurt itself with its slow slide into lawlessness. You can see it on this site displayed vividly. Trying to use the NT and Jesus to influence politics is counter productive since there is no agreement here on what the bible says/means to begin with/from. Extrapolating from confusion generates more confusion.

            What did Jesus say about politics: Obey the authorities because God put them in place and pay your Taxes. He did not say try to resist/undermine government because you don’t like certain policies.

          • Too bad we can’t understand and apply the Bible without our God-given human reasoning, Bob …

          • God said it best:
            Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
            Look at the comments on this site if you want to see the fulfillment of that scripture.

          • Which churches say that grace is a license to sin? I’ve never been in one that has.

          • Yes you have. Only the Catholic Church includes commandment keeping. All the Protestant churches
            believe saved by faith through Grace and the commandments have been nailed to the cross. And I doubt
            you go to any church?

          • “Only the Catholic Church includes commandment keeping.”

            Which commandments do the Catholics keep?

            “All the Protestant churches believe saved by faith through Grace…”

            Well, most use Paul’s letters to build a theology on, so if that’s your point I would agree.”

            “ And I doubt you go to any church?“

            Lol. And you would be wrong.

          • I have often said that evangelicals preach strong grace to get you in, but then strap on duty and commandment keeping soon afterwards … 🙁

          • So progressive Catholics and conservative Catholics obey a different set of commandments?

          • No. Progressive Catholics tend not to obey the commandments they don’t like just like Progressive Christians. They also go around preaching that it is ok because, because…. Conservative Catholics don’t really do any better they just have guilt over their indiscretions and hide their disobedience.

          • Lol! You are so transparent. You don’t give a rip about being considerate of my business. Just today you claim I don’t believe in following the commandments but you apparently do. So I ask which ones you follow. We all know why you don’t answer. You backed yourself into a corner because you lofted yourself up while tearing others down. You got called on the carpet so now you dodge.

            How considerate of my feelings in saying you won’t ask me the same question. Like you even give a crap. This coming from the guy who has spent his day judging me as one who doesn’t go to church (I do), says I believe that grace is a license to sin (I don’t), and that I don’t accept the OT because I may believe differently as you. Good grief.

          • “The Church in America has hurt itself with its slow slide into lawlessness.”

            I disagree. The church in America has hurt itself with its failure to live by Jesus’ greatest commandment- to love God and neighbor. The Pharisees preached that Israel had hurt itself by sliding into lawlessness as well. Their solution was rigid Torah obedience to curry God’s favor believing that would restore the nation. Jesus sharply rebuked such thinking by instead preaching mercy, not sacrifice; preaching love for even enemies, compassion, forgiveness, peace, humility.

          • Israel failed to keep God’s commandments and were ultimately rejected by God. Their history from that point forward is illustrative. Grace is not license to sin. That is the result of your analysis of Jesus and sin is the reason we are in the state we are.

          • Earlier you wrote, “the commandments have been nailed to the cross,” and now you’re saying Israel was rejected for not keeping them — which is it, Bob?

          • “Israel failed to keep God’s commandments and were ultimately rejected by God”

            Specifically which commandments did they fail to keep?

          • “The Sabbath”

            Geez, that’s what the Pharisees kept accusing Jesus of. Did you study under Shammai? Is this one of the commandments you and the Catholics keep? Does this mean my catholic neighbor can no longer mow his yard on Saturday?

          • You don’t seem to comprehend. The Sabbath is the seventh day of the week. Israel changed the day.
            How you “keep” it is distinct from whether you recognize it. Christianity does not recognize the Sabbath. This they freely admit by the way. The Protestants defer that question.

          • “The Sabbath is the seventh day of the week. Israel changed the day.”

            That is just a straight out falsehood.

            Mind you I didn’t have high expectations….and you didn’t disappoint.

          • Not me. You can read all about it in the OT (you know the book you don’t accept).

            Exodus 16:28 “How long ye refuse to keep my commands and instructions.”
            Jeremiah 3:8 “I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery.

            It’s really not complicated. Sin has consequences except in the mind of Progressives.

          • Wow Bob, you must have breakfasted on barbed wire today. You’re very cheery this morning. First you say you doubt I go to any church (I’ve attended regularly for 5 decades without interruption, and served in leadership for 3 decades, not that any of that is any sort of redeeming quality of mine). Then you claim I believe that grace is a license to sin (I don’t recall ever claiming such a thing), then you claim I don’t accept the OT (I’m not even sure what that means other than that’s your way of articulating that I may interpret certain passages differently than you).
            At any rate, since you keep insisting that you keep the commandments and us pathetic progressive Protestants do not, I’m still waiting on you to tell us which commandments do you and the Catholics keep that we don’t?

          • The doubt was based on your many answers over time.
            You may not believe that you approach Grace that way but I am sure you do.
            If you say you believe in the OT I would accept that but I think your belief is qualified isn’t it?
            Pathetic Progressive Protestants (PPP). I love that! Catholics are bound by their religion to keep the commandments. Protestants are not based on their concept of Grace and Works.

          • This comment shows you don’t know the OT. You are just parroting a comment from another who does not understand the OT. 613 indeed!. Catholics are taught to keep their 10 Commandments not 613. Catholics are supposedly the first Christians coming straight from the crucifixion. Protestants came out of the Catholics. I don’r remember the Bull having 613 Commandments did it now?

            The bible is the Word of God in written form. It is Spirit and Truth; part history; part prophecy and all about the Plan of God for Man. Without the bible no one would know anything about anything. The OT and the NT are seamless and together tell us everything.

            But you know that – you just don’t believe it because like all Liberals you know better than God. Good Luck.

          • Bob,
            C’mon, really?

            You say, “This comment shows you don’t know the OT” later followed by, “OT and the NT are seamless and together tell us everything. But you know that – you just don’t believe it…”

            So which is it?

            Here’s the thing. You come on here spouting biblical platitudes and assertions that most everyone on here is intimantly familiar with and have heard probably no less than a million times. You also say patently untrue stuff like there are no black/white issues in this country and then when challenged you blow it off as some liberal tactic.

            Likewise, when challenged on your biblical assertions you dig in your heels and retort with assigning pejorative labels with things like those ignorant “liberals” and “ progressives” and “Democrats” and “Protestants” and “leftists” and on and on. That’s apparently your only defense when someone offers information that might cause you to think or that brings tension to your entrenched dogma that most of the rest of us have already grappled with.

            Btw, Catholics are not taught to obey the 10 commandments. They mow their yards on Saturdays just like the Protestants.

          • Biblical platitudes – instantly familiar with? Hardly. Most on this site are biblical illiterates. All you have to do is read the comments. Most have grappled with? Who are you kidding? I notice you have no problem reading and responding to my comments. I would say of all the replies I see a handful that have actually studied the bible and mostly those who spout other’s nonsense like it is fact. When challenged they never respond with facts. Why? Because Liberals don’t deal in fact only emotion. “All we need is Love.” That is your mantra isn’t it?

            Black/White issues – made up by the Left to sow unrest in this country. Yes. Just look at the debacle in the NFL and ask yourself how a group of millionaire men can be swayed to disrespect the country that gives them their wealth and for what? There is no reason for that behavior except to promote the Left’s agenda of discord. It suits the Left’s purpose to have the NFL players on display and treated as “victims.” No one believes NFL players are victims of anything except for Progressives and the Liberal Sheep that it controls. The Left have destroyed or made worse everything they touch and this is just the latest example.

            Last, you obviously missed a good Catholic education and don’rt understand their religion at all. Any Catholic grade schooler can recite the Ten Commandments at will unlike you or most on this site. You are ignorant of Catholic beliefs as well. The Catholic Church changed the day of worship from the Sabbath to Sunday on its own authority and all the Christian churches that flowed from it (including yours) followed suit. Why is it that you worship on Sunday? You don’t know – you just do! Try reading “Rome’s Challenge: Why Do Protestants Keep Sunday?” and you will then understand why your comment about mowing a lawn is ignorant and shows your lack of understanding this very basic issue. Try defending your church’s decision to worship on Sunday from the bible. You can’t and no one ever has. It is a man made change telling God to accept it. Guess what He doesn’t have to does He?

          • “Because Liberals don’t deal in fact only emotion. “

            I guess that makes you a liberal then.

            “Try defending your church’s decision to worship on Sunday from the bible. You can’t and no one ever has. “

            I don’t try, nor do I claim it’s biblical. That’s precisely why the Catholics do not teach (biblically speaking) to obey the commandments. Thanks for proving my point. Like you don’t present new information. Everybody knows the change from Saturday to Sunday is man made. That goes for Protestants and Catholics. Btw, Sunday is often conflated with Sabbath keeping. Sunday is the Christian day of worship. The Jewish Sabbath is not presented on the same terms to Israelites as Sunday’s are to Christians.

          • You’re forgetting the sin we progressives (and the Bible and Jesus) keep a sharp focus on, Bob — failure to love our neighbors as ourselves (refugees, the poor, victims of power and privilege, etc)

          • You keep forgetting what God is going to say to Progressives, Matthew 7:21-23 I Never Knew You.
            21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

          • Nah, Bob’s admitted in another thread that blacks are stupid.

            And Bob doesn’t realise those verses actually apply to him who sold his soul to a false messiah.

      • Hopefully Ben’s words and likeminded dedicated Christians will continue to speak prophetically until they are heard. There is no longer a Christian division between Evangelicals (“conservatives)” and “liberals”. These terms have now been rendered meaningless in the American religious reality. All Christians must fight the evil if this dangerous American civil religion just as the Hebrew prophets denounced the corrupt religious systems of their day in preparation for Jesus announcing the arrival of the Kingdom of God – a reality that current American Evangelicalism does not understand or practice. The warnings to American Evangelicalism are clear in Scripture. It’s leaders, instead, choose to abuse Scripture. That’s the reality.

        • “All Christians must fight the evil if this dangerous American civil religion just as the Hebrew prophets denounced the corrupt religious systems of their day in preparation for Jesus announcing the arrival of the Kingdom of God – a reality that current American Evangelicalism does not understand or practice.”

          I believe this to be SO true. The Evangelical conservative agenda and their support for Trump is eerily similar to the state of affairs admonished by Jesus in first century Judaism.

          The wealthy Sadducees, in league with governmental authorities (Rome), exercised both religious and civil (Sanhedrin) authority over common Jews. The Pharisees influenced rank and file Jews throughout Palestine within synagogues (local assemblies) by preaching rigid Torah obedience in the hopes of currying favor with God to hasten the establishment of their version of God’s kingdom. The result of these actions resulted in exclusion of the “sinners” and “outcasts.” The onerous demands from the religious authorities (which extended to civil matters) left them feeling isolated, abandoned, and hopeless.

          And then came Jesus to show us the heart of God preaching the law of love to welcome in these “sinners” and “outcasts”, who he said would actually enter the kingdom before the religious authorities. And instead of these religious authorities heeding the warnings that God desired mercy (not sacrifice), they instead dug in their heels by using the govt (Rome) to silence Jesus’ message of love, all the while believing God was on their side.

          Masses of evangelicals today have no clue about the underlying events in Jesus’ day because the gospel message in America has been crafted over centuries, passed down from generation to generation. And it’s rarely, if ever, framed from a historical context, but rather has been molded over time filtered through a contemporary western lens.

          A friend of mine, as a conservative even, once admitted that the American church, of all biblical characters, most resembles the Pharisees. Fortunately he recognized it. Most don’t. They genuinely believe, as the Pharisees did, that God approves of their message, mindset, theology, and doctrine.

          If anyone needs proof, all they need to do is read through the comment sections on many of these blogs. Go preach Jesus and you’ll get pushback from conservative biblicists. Instead of filtering all the Bible through Jesus’ words and actions, they instead filter Jesus through the rest of the Bible. In other words, many think they’re actually worshipping God when instead they’re worshipping the Bible. They don’t see the difference.

  • Despite the flipflops Corey listed, I have yet to find an evangelical Trump supporter who admits doing a flipflop since Bill Clinton was in the White House. Either they have conveniently forgotten when they insisted that “character counts,” or they don’t want to admit it.

  • In a recent Atlantic magazine essay, Michael Gerson described the damage white evangelical support for Trump has done to both the nation and the church — here’s a link and a powerful quote from it below …

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/04/the-last-temptation/554066/

    “Democracy is not merely a set of procedures. It has a moral structure. The values we celebrate or stigmatize eventually influence the character of our people and polity. Democracy does not insist on perfect virtue from its leaders. But there is a set of values that lends authority to power: empathy, honesty, integrity, and self-restraint. And the legitimation of cruelty, prejudice, falsehood, and corruption is the kind of thing, one would think, that religious people were born to oppose, not bless. This disfigurement of evangelical faith squanders the reputation of something valuable…. At its best, faith is the overflow of gratitude, the attempt to live as if we are loved, the fragile hope for something better on the other side of pain and death. And this feather of grace weighs more in the balance than any political gain.” (Michael Gerson)

    • In short, Gerson seems to be observing that the Christian right has chosen its own path to destruction. It’s almost like watching Macbeth in a way. The protagonist, through fears about possible future outcomes, winds up fulfilling prophecy through ill action.

    • Powerful quote? Moral Structure? Here are the attributes of the Left which ruins everything it touches: Abortion, Open Borders, Confrontation, Socialism, Grace as License to Sin. Without Evangelicals this country would already be hell on earth.

      • So Jesus was a Republican?? actually he was much closer to being a socialist — free healing/health care for all, the rich give up all they have for the poor, etc. The article was an evangelical’s prophetic call for evangelicals to return to the faith they once graced and blessed America with — and can do again only if they abandon their false political idols …

        • I’m convinced Jesus couldn’t be elected in the U.S. because of opposition from the conservative evangelicals.

    • Look its no different when evangelicals cheered bush into iraq.

      These people will never acknowledge they are wrong.

  • Wow! You went on in on this one. Did you know the word evangelical is not even in the Bible, but now all these people who curse and did pray for Obama are all of sudden powerful people of prayer. Girl or Boy Bye. Also how can you possibly agree on politics before doctrine. But it’s suppose to be God – Okay!

      • You mean the ones who claim he was anointed by God? The simple fact is that Evangelicals who support Trump are hypocrites. Every single lily white one of them. Andif there really was a God, he would hate every single one of their hypocritical asses to Hell.

        • I concur. I was INSIDE American Evangelicalism from 1978 to 1986.

          I was even a Worship Leader … ’cause I had a nice singing voice, and looked good in a long swirly white dress, banging my tambourine and raising my pretty (well … back THEN ;->) hands in the air!

          There is NOTHING holy about them. They started out nice, but then I realized what they REALLY worship is … Male Supremacy, and making life as difficult for WOMEN as possible.

          Unless the woman is “submitted”. “Submitted Women” are victims of emotional and doctrinal slavery.

  • I don’t understand what has caused the mass exodus of the Right from anything resembling Christianity. For the past decade the Right has clung increasingly more tightly to the Christian label while shedding any pretense of living by Christian precepts. Try having a biblical discussion with a conservative and you’ll quickly release they have absolutely no knowledge of the Bible they profess to follow. Is seems the Conservative concept of Christianity is to worship Jesus as an icon while ignoring any of his teachings.

    • As crazy as this may seem, I believe much of the steady drift, admittedly over time, continues to stem from a dogmatically inerrant view of scripture taught in pulpits around the country to thousands of parishioners in conservative settings.

      Many believe, and are taught, that following “the Bible” is synonymous with following Jesus. This means that the teachings of Jesus are viewed in the same light as anything else recorded in the Bible, including the OT instructions to commit genocide. To them, Jesus (as a part of the Trinity) ordered the slaughter of the Canaanites in the OT, as well as said love your enemies in the NT. So instead of looking at these events/instructions in contradiction to one another, they instead try to make them both fit, which allows their worldview to be easily manipulated to condone unloving actions against others not in their tribe. Their Christian worldview has room for biblical instructions that seem counter to Jesus’ teachings. But that’s ok because it’s in “the Bible.”

    • You are so right. Right-wing winged Christianity has become a cult,twisted and stretched to fit the inclusive,wealth – worshipping, racist agenda many of them follow.A belief system that Jesus would not condone according to His teachings.

    • They’ve always used Christianity as cover for conservatism. Why, though, I don’t understand either. Maybe they think it gives them more weight?

  • I love the extreme disconnect. A *single* Democratic representative wears a shirt that says “I (and I is a key word here) don’t believe in borders.” Response: THe DEMOcratS ARE CALLing FOR OPEN BORDERS!!!!!. 19 women can claim that Trump touched them inappropriately, walked into a room where they were naked, sexually assaulted them, and at least one credible claim of rape, with a witness to verify it. Response: FAKE NEWS FAKE NEWS FAKE NEWS WHY DO YOU HATE TRUMP MAGA FAKE NEWS!!!!1!!

    Trump lovers will be burying their faces in shame in a very short time, but we will remember who you are.

    • Also they seem to lack the self awareness to realize that when they try and talk about Bill Clinton as a distraction, they are using the same standards of evidence that we do when talking about Donald being accused of sexual assault. I mean, yes, we know that Bill is a sexual predator… but that doesn’t make Donald… not…? a sexual predator…?
      Nor does it erase the fact that they voted for him while remaining willfully ignorant of the claims of sexual assault against him.

      • It really is astonishing, isn’t it? “Bill Clinton is a sexual predator” as a statement in absolutely no logical way leads to “Therefore, being a sexual predator is a fine thing.” And yet that’s the twisted ‘logic’ that happens.

    • Democrats have no leadership and the party is split by the Progressives: Open Borders, Raise Taxes, Impeach the President will not get democrats re-elected.

    • Extreme disconnect? This President has been under investigation by a special counsel Muller. Muller has looked at 1.5 million documents we are told. The NY Times reported Muller has looked at the Stormy claims. You want us to believe Muller missed the rape of a 13 year old with a witness?

      • We don’t know if that has been pulled into the investigation, yet. You should go read the depositions taken for the incident you mention. The 3 girls involved, now all adults, are pretty credible. The stories match and the even the 18 yo girl who was tasked with bringing the children into the orgy gave the same story. It’s a shame that death threats and greed forced them all to back off and go underground.

        • I should read the depositions? Law enforcement should act if there has been a crime. Such an allegation would not be ignored. If the media can get itself into a frenzy over Stormy imagine what they would do if this were credible? So it’s not.

          • You cannot force these woman to risk their lives, and the lives of their family and friends. They apparently felt threatened enough to assume a new life and try to live with their trauma. Without their cooperation and testimony, the case is dead in the water.

          • Case from 1994. Lisa Bloom their attorney paid money to women willing to accuse Trump of sexual crimes . Case brought before election, June 20, to try and damage Trump campaign. Strategy failed.

            “On 15 December 2017, The Hill, a web site devoted to Capitol Hill news and commentary, posted an article reporting that prominent Los Angeles-based women’s rights attorney Lisa Bloom had offered money to women who were considering going public with accusations against President Donald Trump regarding sexual harassment and assault:”

    • The single democrat talks for the DNC and thus for you.
      “The deputy chairman of the Democratic National Committee wore a T-shirt which urged opposition to national borders around the United States, as he walked in a May Day parade in Minneapolis, Minn.”
      Soon “you” will be marganilized into the dust bin of history: #WalkAway

      • Nope.

        You really are deluded if you think the democrat party (the party which actually got more votes) will be consigned to history.

        You could say the same about the republicans once trump has finished using it as his personal plaything.

  • Re. #10: You might recall the “Pray for the President” bumper stickers that popped up after 9/11 — and clearly referring to George W Bush. We had some conservative neighbors who had those stickers on all their cars. But right after Obama was elected, those stickers mysteriously and quickly disappeared. Obama must have been truly amazing if he didn’t need the nation’s prayers.

    Not surprisingly, these same cars later sported Tea Party symbols and slogans, pious calls to prayer replaced with calls for “Hillary for Prison.”

  • After being away i thought i’d come back to see if trump supporters are still deluded.

    Yep.

    What we have here folks is a new religion.

    • Obama never went after Christians, or had anti Christian policies. What he did – or tried to do – was to prevent Christians from forcing their views on anyone else..

    • You guys were too busy crying because you couldnt bash gay people anymore.

      Btw there are those of us who criticised bush and obama for their foreign policies.

      But trump is off limits to his disciples.

    • Where do you get this propagandist drivel? Facebook? Fox? Try Putin. Our nation,democracy and even Christianity is under threat. Please open your eyes…

  • I am very sadly impressed with the way so many people commenting on this article are so clearly illustrating the faux christian points the author makes. Perhaps a little less defensiveness and a little more prayerful thought might make those people sound more rational and less hate filled.

  • He sure does assume a lot doesn’t he. I would certainly like to sit down and speak to him about all of this. Then I would have him to explain who he would suggest I vote for. Trump has certainly been the most Christian president of my lifetime. I’ll be about as clear as I can be about this but there is nothing in the democratic platform that has anything to do with God. As a matter of fact they had to vote him back into the platform which was quite embarrassing. During the founding of this country that would’ve made them anti-American.
    None of us can be responsible for all the leaders actions and there should be grace for all of it but there is certainly nothing in the democratic platform that has anything to do with Christianity. Jesus never ordained the government to help the poor. it was always the individuals that had love attached to it and not a cold check in the mail that creates sluggards.
    So yeah many of us had comfort and had to cling to Romans 13 else we would have been worse during the Obummer admin. 😉

    • Trump has been the most Christian president of your lifetime? How old are you? Also, where does any part of the Constitution call for the President to be a Christian?

      • Yes he has…atleast his policies and judicial picks. Im 49. Documents of such brilliance and equality come from nowhere else than the Bible and Christians. The constitution doesnt say anyone has to be a Christian but the wording drives towards that bent and most of the founding fathers certainly were.
        The Declaration of Independence, the most famous document produced by the Continental Congress during the War for Independence, proclaims: “We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” As well, this text references “the laws of nature and of nature’s God” and closes by “appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world” and noting the signers’ “reliance on the protection of divine Providence.” The Founders’ use of Christian rhetoric and arguments becomes even more evident if one looks at other statements of colonial rights and concerns such as the Suffolk Resolves, the Declaration of Rights, and the Declaration of the Causes and Necessity of Taking up Arms—to say nothing of the dozen explicitly Christian calls for prayer, fasting, and thanksgiving issued by the Continental and Confederation Congresses

        • Derpy the founding fathers were deists.

          Notice how your ‘brilliant’ and ‘equal’ documents were used against blacks and native Americans.

          The supreme judge of the world is mightily pissed with people like yourself.

        • God is not the property of Christianity. God existed long before, and will exist long after. The Creator they are referring to is, btw, not Jesus. So no, you cannot claim Christianity. Some of the founding fathers were Christian, some were Deists, and some were definitely Christians in name only. However, none of that proves that 45 is somehow “the most Christian President” of your time. That is a ridiculous and outrageous claim. I think you might want to brush up on what Christianity actually is, not what Trump is selling.

        • For the record, the author of the Declaration of Independence (this Christian themed document lol) was Thomas Jefferson, an undisputed deist. He even created his own bible by snipping away sections of the Christian Bible he considered to be unreliable. Benjamin Franklin was a deist as well.

          “We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.”

          Except for enslaved black people.

          “As well, this text references ‘the laws of nature and of nature’s God’ and closes by ‘appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world’ and noting the signers’ ‘reliance on the protection of divine Providence.’”

          There is nothing distinctively Christian at all in such generic terms as “God” or “Supreme Judge” or “Providence” (which was a common way Washington referred to God as well). Any religion with a belief in God could use those terms. And that was kinda the point.

          Today’s conservative evangelicals would find the views held by many of the founding fathers as abhorrent. Progressives are criticized for being too tolerant, yet George Washington himself was tolerant of other views (Jewish, Muslim, atheists, etc).

          John Adams was a Unitarian who some allege did not believe in the deity of Christ. James Madison, who seemed to be a deist as well and the chief author of the constitution, was a fierce proponent of the separation of church and state.

          By the way, I’m a Christian, but I think it’s important to be factual. Peace

    • Can you tell me — specifically — what of the 10 items listed in this post you disagree with and why you disagree?

  • This feels relevant: https://www.npr.org/2016/10/23/498890836/poll-white-evangelicals-have-warmed-to-politicians-who-commit-immoral-acts

    No group has shifted their position more dramatically than white evangelical Protestants. More than seven in ten (72%) white evangelical Protestants say an elected official can behave ethically even if they have committed transgressions in their personal life—a 42-point jump from 2011, when only 30 % of white evangelical Protestants said the same.

    • Equating personal transgressions as relevant to political life depends on the transgression. Men and sex is something that will never change. People judge for themselves on these things. Why? Because they want politicians who can solve their problems. Progressive social issues do not resonate with most Americans. Don’t believe me watch the supposed Blue Wave fail to materialize and you will see this proved but you will still not nnderstand.

      • >’Men and sex is something that will never change.’

        And so you’re 100% A-OK with men having sex with men and everything from legalized gay marriage to laws against discrimination that hurts gay men… right?

        God, the hipocracy is so thick. President Donald Trump appears on the cover of Playboy magazine, brags about cheating on his wives, gets linked to abortions promoted among his mistresses, et cetera. That’s all apparently fine because sexual morality rules only apply when it’s convenient.

        • The comment is a follow up to calling Trump a NY playboy in his youth. It refers to Trump’s three marriages.
          The Progressive Left is besotted with sex and sexual innuendo and everything sex. One wonders when they time for anything else. The Left and Liberals are baby killers because it is a convenient birth control. As to why the Left and Liberals think they are superior to others and should dictate to us on the Right about morals- I say look in the mirror.

  • Ugh… I just spent 10 minutes scrolling through the comment section here. I need a shower.

    Serious question for Mr. Corey – What did you hope to accomplish by writing this and do you think you accomplished it? Was it more than an exercise in catharsis? I really get the desire to write something like this, but I’m not sure it brings out anyone’s better angels.

    • And there you were posting from gay hating sites and claiming they had nothing against gays.

      Why do you people think anyone gives a f### about what you think when you consistently and deliberately lie.

      • SamHamilton has already been called out for his tactics of obfuscation, derailment, deception and false witness, bullying, and then lying in attempt to deny his well-documented behaviors. His response is to just lie and deny, lie and deny. Just watch:

  • USING corporate, alternative, institutional CONTACTS to BYPASS the governing process is the form of SEDITION that Rich People get into. AFFILIATED CHAINS of COMMAND WITH DEEP POCKETS twist, alter, objectify, discard AND WORK AROUND THE GOVERNING PROCESS. This needs to stop BRIBERY money BUYS influence. Let’s fix this. https://youtu.be/hlCceigGiRY

  • . . We’re on the cusp of a civil war in which the Left side of the spectrum wants to DESTROY, kill, assassinate, injure, impeach . . . yada yada this president who was lawfully elected, a man without a police record, with a business background. And THIS CHRISTIAN JOURNAL wants to get behind attacking this Chief Executive? What ever happened to your sense of Rule of Law and Fair Play? Is what you are saying that you PREFER the Clinton criminal mafia and its money-laundering, pay-to-play, child trafficking and charity fraud??? . . . https://youtu.be/hZlYOK1RMk8

  • People
    can interpret their holy book to mean virtually anything, and the next
    person can interpret an opposite meaning from the first. I agree that it
    is very difficult to label Trump as any form of Christian, despite the
    support he gets from evangelicals. But there’s more to their hypocrisy
    than the obvious. Evangelicals seem to hold support for Trump for 1 or 2
    main reasons (mostly pro-life view on abortion). They will spin their
    other religious views as needed, but so do other Christians.

    Biblical
    teachings of immigrants is a case in point. When the US was just
    forming, different denominations of Christians were at war with each
    other leading to exclusion from various parts of the 13 colonies. Also,
    “no such thing as patriotic worship? You’d better not say that to a
    person from an Islamic country. Islam is the state religion ***and***
    the government. Jesus said love our enemies, yet he fashioned a vicious
    whip to attack the moneylenders, and God commanded a boatload of
    genocidal attacks. Trump’s chant of MAGA is full of holes, yes. (When
    exactly was America great? 1950s when there were no civil rights? 1850s
    when a civil war was upon it? 1750s when there was slavery?) However,
    the cry to return to biblical values is also fraught with problems.
    Which values? Where women are inferior to men? Where it was ok to
    slaughter a neighboring tribe? Where the rules said kill unruly
    children? When slavery was condoned? When polygamy was ok?

  • Of the “10 signs” of “Trumpianity” written above, conservative-leaning commentators may wish to note that none of them include “voting for Donald Trump”.
    #10 would not include a Trump voter who didn’t try to make the President above criticism from his opponents because the President is Donald Trump.
    #9 would not include a Trump voter who disagreed that Trump’s immigration policy was in fact against the Bible, but didn’t suddenly decide that obeying the law was more important than obeying the Bible because the law was now being determined by Donald Trump.
    #8 would not include a Trump voter who didn’t think nationalism was a tenet of the Christian religion
    #7 would not include a Trump voter who believed Trump when he said in his campaign he was against military intervention, was disheartened not cheering when he said ” knock the crap ” out of a protestor and considered military intervention an unfortunate last resort, not an occasion for rejoicing.
    #6 would not include a Trump voter who held their nose and voted for him because the alternative was somehow worse
    #5 would not include a Trump voter who doesn’t agree with the protest but doesn’t think a flag is a religious icon and recognises a right to protest.
    #4 would not include a Trump voter who doesn’t think secular laws should mandate religious positions and worries that state welfare provisions never properly work
    #3 would not include a Trump voter who sympathises with refugees and would like to help but worries about border security
    #2 would not include a Trump voter who thinks Trump was actually picked by voters as no more than the better choice of the options available
    #1 would not include a Trump voter who would very much have preferred a candidate with a decent character, but thought the other worse and made the best if a bad job.
    I don’t think Ben is saying simply voting Republican, or Trump, is the same as “Trumpianity” but the way a lot of particularly evangelical Christians literally idolise Trump goes way, way further than just plumping for him as the best bet for a political office.
    NB – For the avoidance of doubt, I am not American, and like most of the rest of the world think he is truly horrible and the American people were stark staring bonkers to pick him as president (a view Ben no doubt shares) but I don’t think (and I don’t think Ben does) that everybody involved in this hideous mistake has necessarily abandoned their Christianity as well.

    • Well put, Iain. I was disgusted by his primary campaign, and voted for Kasich. But he has done a lot of good things so I am pleased that he has outperformed the negative predictions many had about him.

      • I would agree Trump has outperformed the negative predictions about him, in the sense that no-one thought he would be this bad. I am wondering what parallel universe you are living in that you perceive this as a president doing well.

        • All his appointments have been good other than Bannon and Tillerson and they’re gone now. All of the problems and “scandals” of his Presidency haven’t been any worse than other recent Presidents, certainly not as bad as Obama’s problems. He has set the economy on a stronger course and has rolled back many burdensome regulations. All my opinions, natch, but i’m not really a parallel universe seeing that he has 48% approval rating currently.

          • Are you out of your FUCKING MIND? Pruitt? DeVos? Zinke? PERRY?

            You ARE out of your fucking mind. Oh, that’s right–Trumpanzees don’t have MINDS, just this little pinkish thing dangling Down There, that they use as a gauge.
            |
            You must think that CRIMINAL is COMPETENT. Go back to noshing on Trump’s Urine Popsicle.

          • This response is a typical example of the incivility which dominates those who are emotionally animated but otherwise vacant of arguments. Those suffering from Trump derangement seem almost incapable of avoiding potty language, even on a Christian website. It does little to convince those of different opinions, and has led to the #WalkAway campaign. If you haven’t heard of the #WalkAway campaign yet, check it out. It is a movement out of the democrat party as a direct result of behavior and language like yours. These people are embarrassed more by you than they are by Trump, and I agree with them.

          • Yeah. Lock him up.

            Womp..womp…

            Meanwhile Trump supporters spread their hate throughout the US.

          • How do you figure that any of his appointments have been good? The entire Cabinet is made up of people who made it their career to destroy the very thing they are now in charge of–one of the more shining examples is DeVos–and his SCOTUS pick was considered too racist for the Federal bench in the 80’s. The only reason his scandals and incompetence don’t seem abysmal to you is that they are so numerous that no single one either stands out or even gets fully reported. They just come too thick and fast for news coverage to really lay any of them fully bare. The economy has slowed in the upward trajectory Obama left it in. Finally, we have lost all respect we still had in the eyes of the rest of the world. Thanks to the Angry Orange, America will probably never be great again.

          • By all means, point out where any of it is wrong. If my opinions are unfounded, yours are at least as much so, as we offered the same amount of supporting evidence. Edit: I mentioned DeVos’s career specifically, which is trivially easy to look up. Therefore, my opinion currently stands as the more founded and substantial of the two.

          • Wrong? No one seriously questioned Judge Gorsuch’s qualifications because he was above reproach. Racist is simply a democrat/progressive slur. Your opinion is noted and filed in the trashcan.

          • There is hope. Thanks to the person who mentioned #WalkAway:
            Thread: I decided to #WalkAway as a former Obama supporter after realizing how dangerous the Democratic Party is. Open borders. High taxes. Socialism. Sucking up to Islamic terrorists. Taking away our guns. The LLM (Lying Liberal Media), Sanctuary cities. GENDER PRONOUNS…
            I was a Democratic activist for 15 years, but the 2016 election opened my eyes. I don’t recognize the party anymore. It is corrupt and hostile to independent thinkers; its leaders are divisive and hypocritical. It advances no ideas or serious policy, just hostility. #WalkAway
            A Democrat would give the shirt off my back and the money in my pocket to an illegal immigrant – which is one of the MANY reasons why I chose to #WalkAway
            Voted for Bill Clinton, Al Gore, John Kerry, and Obama. My eyes were opened once I found out the real frauds that the Democrat party had become. None of them ever delivered any promise ever made. Until Trump came along … the rest is history. #WalkAway #MAGA2020

      • My mother, an immigrant from Italy at the age of 12, told me that that the people in her town thought Mussolini did a “lot of good things.”

  • Your post is on point. The interesting thing is how these positions can be turned around. Let’s take #1. I know so many people who back in the 90’s were defending Clinton and saying we weren’t electing a pastor but now have an issue with Trump. If we all were not so ideological (ideology is our new religion) we’d all point out how both Clinton and Trump were wrong.

    • Uh… Its not unnatural or even hypocritical (as you seem to imply) for someone to have no problem with Clinton, yet have a problem with Trump, because, you know, there’s normal everyday common sin and standard “stupid presidential decisions” and then there’s…cartoon villain-like super-evil. Praise of dictators. Open calls for shutting down the free press / any press that is even slightly critical of him…Setting up what looks like the beginnings of actual-factual concentration camps and enacting policy to tear children from their parents. Standard lying about sexytime pales in comparison. Clinton was wrong and should be held to it, however… there’s apples to oranges.

      • Fine, but Clinton was still wrong and should have left quietly after his term was over. The Clintons were only too happy to run against Barack Obama with an “only I can fix it” attitude. I agree that there is no comparison, or that the equivalence is false, but let’s face it, the bald-faced idiocy being shown by those attacking the special prosecutor is not all that far from people still unable to admit that Clinton abused women.

  • here’s back at ya Ben the progressive “Christian”….you sound like a scowling, angry, embittered trogg spewing contemptuous hatred for America, men, God, guns…. a hostile, hate-filled face, tainted by envy, corruption, mendacity, with full-blown anti-American sentiments…you have thrown open the doors to your diseased inner sanctum, baring your storehouse of wilted values and stunted counterfeit virtues. Your a degenerate, mouth-breathing troglodyte who has the intellectual agility of a sea slug with Down’s syndrome….a tragic figure spewing flimflam, humbuggery and polly-foggery as a steady diatribe.…a dried-up simpleton worthy of pity and prayer. In your hallucinatory world you will probably find sympathetic souls, those who will only prolong your delusions. But alas, in the end your just a person of the creative self…simple, double minded, void of any intellectual curiosity, unstable in all you do.

  • Here’s my question? Have you sat down to talk directly with anyone who voted for Trump? Do you know them by name? Do you know their story? You direct your arguments to “conservatives” assuming they all believe in the way you have generalized them to be boxing them all into your perceived trunk of “Trumpians.”

    Christ was unique because he took the time to listen to people’s story. He saw them. Not their labels, what faction of Judaism they belonged to, He just saw them.

    We should all try that instead of turning around and self-righteously judging and generalizing a whole group of people that you don’t even know. You may know a few, but does that now constitute an expert knowledge of all conservatives? It’s quite laughable actually.

    I suppose my response is thank God He is the judge of all. I don’t have to answer to you or you to me, nor do the so-called “Trumpians” as you have arbitrarily labeled them, but we both along with those Christ died for, will ONLY have to answer to Him. Again, thank God for that.

    • I have relatives who voted for Trump, but they certainly don’t go out of their way to defend everything Trump does. They keep their faith and politics separate… and even they can admit that some of the stuff Trump did pretty much goes against Jesus’s teachings. Of course, they do turn it around by saying that everyone’s a sinner, and that god gets to be the one who judges us all in the end. Many of them seem to regret voting for trump just to “shake up things”… but they don’t really like losing face so they say that all the presidential candidates were pretty shit this time around, so we would’ve “lost” no matter what.

    • Have you sat down to talk directly with anyone who voted for Trump?

      Certainly. Some of us are even closely related to some of them. Some of us are even closely related to people who not only voted for Trump (which the article does not address), but who continue to support him.

      Christ was unique because he took the time to listen to people’s story.

      Nothing in Corey’s essay above indicates that he hasn’t heard their story. He’s making a statement about their values as expressed by their actions. When Jesus saw someone whose values as expressed by their actions were out of whack, He called them out on it — sometimes with blistering invective (see Matthew 23, directed at religious leaders who ought to have known better than to act the way they were acting, even as they prioritized practicing the tenets of their faith that had been delivered to them by God Himself).

      We should all try that instead of turning around and self-righteously judging and generalizing a whole group of people that you don’t even know.

      … says the person who doesn’t even know whether or not Corey knows people who support Trump, making vast generalizations and judgments while doing so. For example:

      You may know a few, but does that now constitute an expert knowledge of all conservatives?

      Here, we see a vast generalization that an expert knowledge of “all conservatives” is needed to make statements about what it means to support Trump, as if all conservatives support Trump — combined with a fact-free judgment that Corey’s essay must be the result of the kind of paltry understanding that comes from only knowing a few conservatives.

      I don’t have to answer to you or you to me, nor do the so-called “Trumpians” as you have arbitrarily labeled them, but we both along with those Christ died for, will ONLY have to answer to Him.

      Yet, you seem to think that Corey should answer to you and your questions, or perhaps at least that a reader of the comments should answer to those things; it’s hard to think of another reason why you’d post them. Interesting, that.

      Now, what kind of answer would one give Christ for practicing hypocrisy?

      • I don’t think Corey should answer to me as I made plainly clear in my post. Am I incorrect that God is the only one that can read the heart and judge by the heart alone? I think not since scripture declares it to be so. It is a logical fallacy to assume that anyone who voted for Trump or who may support the President think and believe as Corey purports. That is a generalization. In order to make such statements one must be able speak to all conservatives, it’s called evidence, facts and statistics. None here is shown. I am not making any accusations. Yet you, in your own passive aggressive way, decided to pass judgment and accuse me of hypocrisy. I’m saying, lets listen to one another without the spirit of criticism. Understanding is what leads to reconciliation. Christ himself sat, ate and socialized with tax-collectors, who were representatives of an oppressive government and who used their government position to lie, cheat and steal from their own people. Pretty deplorable. The community deemed these tax collectors to be morally debased and rightfully so. Christ sat with them, ate with them and even asked one of them to follow Him and did it without a screening, criticism or self-righteousness. His example tells us – All are welcome and all are valued. That’s all I’m saying. Before we label others, lets remember that God already deems them welcome and valued.

        • Christ also declared those who oppressed others as outside the kingdom of god. He villified their policies which created inequality and division.

          He was executed for a reason.

          Has anyone accused you of not being an american yet?

        • Repentance is a thing, you know.

          It is entirely different from proudly continuing to lie, cheat and steal while claiming “only God can judge me.”

      • That’s an assumption. How do you know my motive in asking questions? Be careful what you presume to know, my friend. Honest conversation is what allows us all to understand each other better. The more we generalize, the more we arrogantly presume and that only leads to further division.

    • Quite strangely, Javier Gonzalez upvoted his own post. I have not yet figured out how to do that. Whatupp, Patheos?
      Huh! Tried it, and it worked! Well, I will never again have to suffer the indignity of having no up votes on one of my posts!

    • Oh, baloney. Jesus saw a woman who asked for healing, and because she wasn’t an Israelite, he refused. He even refused until she literally compared herself to a dog eating crumbs from “the King’s” table.

      Jesus was a fucking bigot.

  • If President Obama had proposed abolishing due process, the way President Trump has proposed doing at the border, would conservative evangelicals have been either silent or supportive?

    The reason I ask is because I understand conservatism to embrace limited government under the rule of law. Due process is a fundamental part of limiting the power of government and protecting individual rights.

    “The history of liberty has largely been the history of observance of procedural
    safeguards.” — Justice Felix Frankfurter

    So if conservatives still believe in limited government, why do they support Trump when he wants to curb due process and when he issues far more executive orders than Obama?

      • == Due process at the border is an oxymoron. == Please clarify. Are you saying it’s wrong to provide people with due process in certain parts of the country? If so, in what way is that a conservative view?

        • Fortunately people don’t have a say in enforcing immigration laws whether conservative or evangelical. Limited government as a concept has nothing to do with border security. Security is one of the governments highest responsibilities. The individual rights you mention do not in general attach to illegal immigrants and also have nothing to do with individual liberty. The issue of whether Due Process attaches just because someone runs across the border is a legal distinction that could be avoided by building the wall. Lacking that rather than hiring 5000 more judges to adjudicate border crossing illegals we could simply pick them up in 5000 buses and drive them back.

          • Thankfully sanhedrin followed due process when they had jesus executed.

            You arent a christian are you?

          • So some people on American soil are not entitled to due process, in your opinion.
            It seems to me the core of conservative doctrine is this principle: In America, the only legitimate power is a limited power. I agree with that principle, but I’m not sure you do, since you are willing to give the chief executive unchecked authority to detain and expel people.. I also agree with Justice Frankfurter when he said, “The history of liberty has largely been the history of observance of procedural safeguards.”

            I remember that for many decades conservatives warned about the concentration of power in the presidency. They criticized FDR and other Democrats for accumulating too much power. Now conservatives favor removing due process and lodging power only in the chief executive. It seems to me conservatism has changed in the Trump era. Not that I expect you to admit that, since you won’t recognize that Bill Clinton’s adultery was judged far more harshly by evangelicals than is Donald Trump’s. Character used to count.

          • Is “playboy” the new Christian word for adulterer? Did you replace fornicator with that too? Btw, Trump is as much of a rapist as Clinton, whether or not you like it.

          • Sorry. You are wrong:

            “Juanita Broaddrick — birth name Juanita Smith, first married name Juanita Hickey — is an American former nursing home administrator. Wikipedia
            Born: December 13, 1942 (age 75 years), United States of America
            Education: Van Buren High School
            Books: You’d Better Put Some Ice on That: How I Survived Being Raped by Bill Clinton”

            Let’s see your accuser?

          • Your huffpost cite is is silly. That is why we call it fake news. You can’t even summarize the story in the line you posted. “She has a witness.” Who may we ask is she? Who is the witness.

          • So you didn’t read it, or you read it but you can’t refute it, nor will you bother to look up the many other articles about it (because they can’t ALL be fake news, now can they?) Either way, it’s part of the public record, she has filed a lawsuit against him- twice. She withdrew the lawsuit because she was receiving death threats from- guess who?- Trump henchmen. And yes, she has a witness, who saw Trump rape her when she was 13 years old. Btw, he was still married at this time, so you can definitely count this as adultery in addition to statutory rape. No amount of false Christianity wipes away the rape of a 13 year old by a grown man. He belongs in prison, but you idiots can’t bear to accept the mistake that you made supporting him so you just keep pushing on through with your heads in the sand.

            https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/02/donald-trump-rape-lawsuit-13-year-old-cancels-public-event

            https://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/donald-trump-rape-lawsuit-dropped-230770

            Now, at what point in time did the word playboy replace adulterer in christian circles? Cite your sources.

          • If any of this were true it would be news and it’s not.
            Trump threatened her? This is really way out there.
            Why don’t you make a citizen’s arrest.

          • So obviously you have no real response, just deflect, deflect. Your reading comprehension, or lack thereof, is as Trump would say “Sad!” I feel sorry for folks like you. But not that sorry.

          • You have no common sense. Deflect what? An article that has no substance; written entirely for the purpose of stopping the Trump campaign; that did not work. If any of it were slightly true it would be out there in the mainstream Fake News Media 24/7. But it’s not. Try to reason why it is not in the press and you might figure it out. The Media, the Elite and the Democrats hate Trump more than you do and they haven’t picked this up. Why? Think!

            Wild eyed unabated and irrational hatred of President Trump is called Trump derangement syndrome.You are a prime example. To criticize us on the right based on our complete support for the President is another symptom of this disease you exhibit. I’d say start drinking and stay inebriated for the next six years because you have it bad.

          • It is irrational to hate someone based on the second hand information you choose to accept while disdaining anything said to the contrary.

          • My views are well known in Ben’s blogs: political and biblical. I hate abortion and I hate people who support it in any form.
            As far as the #MeToo movement I agree that men are the sexual predators; many politicians seem to fall into this category.

            Your question is not for me to answer. Your hatred of our President appears to me to be mostly political reinforced with the news reports of his sexual history. Maxine Waters is the democrat poster child for this kind of behavior.

          • “Your question is not for me to answer.”

            Please! Someone! Help!!
            This man is missing his vertebrae!!

            But in all seriousness Donald supports the discrimination against trans people (my kind) in healthcare, so I don’t hate him just because he’s a sexual predator, but because he compromises the continued wellbeing of people like me.

            https://www.advocate.com/transgender/2018/4/22/trump-allow-anti-trans-discrimination-health-care
            https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/21/us/politics/trump-transgender-health-care.html
            https://rewire.news/article/2018/04/25/health-care-access-hard-trans-people-like-trump-trying-make-harder/
            https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/04/22/donald-trump-trans-healthcare-bill-rule-lawsuit/

          • Ok. So you also hate him because the healthcare laws discriminate against your “kind.”
            Is this about the taxpayer paying for gender reassignment surgery? Or something else.

          • It would be absolutely wonderful if taxpayers funded surgery, buuuuuuuuut… no.

            I’m talking about hospitals being able to deny service because we’re trans, stuff like health checkups, breast cancer screening, prostate exams, cervical exams. stuff that keeps us alive.

            But I dunno, maybe you enjoy the idea of us dying and going away, considering how much horror trumplings express about GENDER PRONOUNS, our existence must be very troubling to you.

          • I doubt that service is any different. How would a hospital even know your sexual identity.
            You continue to try to provoke with claims that are not legitimate.

          • ” How would a hospital even know your sexual identity”
            Ummm… because I present as female?
            It’s, uh, pretty obvious I identify as a woman??

          • A lady asking for a prostate exam or a man asking for a cervical exam is pretty obviously trans. Ditto for women and men who still have M or F respectively on their birth certificate, and there are others like myself who are pretty open about being trans.

            It’s… really… not hard? at all? to understand how hospitals can find out people are trans.

          • Clinton had an affair with Monica Lewinski. I twice asked about adultery and you twice evaded my question by changing the subject. I guess if I had flipped on whether character counts in the White House, I wouldn’t want to admit it either.

            As far as the topic you keep bringing up, Trump has been accused of sexual assault and harassment by more than a dozen women. Let me guess: You believe all of Clinton’s accusers but not one of Trump’s, right?

          • Juanita Broaddrick claims she was raped. She is not alone. What was your question about adultery? I said Donald was a NY playboy. He has been married three times. Character is not defined just by marital fidelity.

          • “Character is not defined just by marital fidelity.”

            It’s a pretty good indicator. Throw in a some sexual harassment, some lewd language, some shady business dealings, some lying, some idiotic tweeting often containing bad grammar, misspellings, and childish name calling (all of this from the POTUS no less) and voila! You now have a bona fide low life, low character, thin skinned buffoon guarding the hen house. Not that Cheeto Mussolini does not have any class…. he has lots of class.. all low.

          • You have no perspective on life. Equating tweets and character indicates you aren’t serious. Name calling was a deliberate and is a deliberate strategy that worked and got Trump elected. You know what low lifes are as they live in every community. You know what buffoons are I am sure; Trump is neither.

            As to men and sex you are either woefully ignorant there too or you hope your comments have some impact. They don’t because most on this site agree with you before they even read your posts. What character does Bill Clinton possess? He has lived a life of indulgence and now it shows in his face. As far as President’s go he is the singular and poster child for low moral character.

          • Good grief Bob, this is delusional nonsense, My wife read me a quote from a work of fiction that immediately reminded her of Trump and the secret of his success……

            “the general culture is often stupid or evil and would vote out God in favor of the devil if he fed them back their hate and fear in a way that made them righteous.”

          • I don’t think so. You question how Trump got elected? How did Obama get elected? He had no experience in running anything and it showed all through his two terms.

          • Because bush jr was so bad.

            Obama thought he could work with the republicans.

            He found out what a mistake that was.

          • Funny I remember you people going nuts about Clintons immorality.

            Trump has clinton beat easily on the race to the bottom of humanity.

          • 45 has lived a life of indulgence and it shows on his everything. He’s a greedy, narcissist who thinks the rules- any rules- don’t apply to him. As for your opinions on men and sex, of course those are your opinions on it as a man. The rest of us would like a President who can keep it in his pants.

          • Obama, obviously, but I’m not claiming partisanship. Anyone who turns a blind eye to a president’s infidelity, adultery, or RAPE because they believe he’s a good president otherwise is part of the problem.

          • Obama’s indiscretions will eventually come to light.
            If you have credible evidence that President Trump raped anyone we would love to see it. You don’t! You just repeat slander like its truth because you want to believe it.

          • Obama has done nothing of the sort, because if he had it would have already come to light. He had people digging into every single aspect of his life looking for something to bring up, because they hated him so much. And yet, no affairs, no infidelity, no raping 13 year olds. Just a constant barrage of insults to him and his family. As for proof, see my responses above. It is a matter of public record. Choosing not to believe something doesn’t make it false.

          • OK so adultery no longer defines character the way evangelicals once said it did when Ralph Reed insisted “character counts” in the oval office while supporting Clinton’s impeachment. How about truth-telling? Does that count in your definition of character? How about how one treats others? Does that count?

          • Your characterizations are askew. What do Evangelicals have to do with politics? Answer nothing more or less than any other group with views. What do Evangelicals have to do with people on this site? Answer they are the objects of hatred because they interpret the bible conservatively not liberally. Do Liberals judge Conservatives falsely – all the time. It’s like blood sport.

            Truth telling from a public official is not straightforward. You are not the judge of the President’s comments you just think you are. The President tweets to avoid the Fake News filters and you say he is lying based on what you here and how you hear it. But if you have two Lies you’d care to explore I’d love to see them. Here is an example from Obama: If you like you Plan you can keep it; if you like your Doctor you can keep him. This was judged to be the Lie of the Year by the media.

            You are certainly not the judge of his actions because you don’t even understand them.
            A good example of treating others is the current faux outrage over immigration which is a manufactured crisis designed to make the President look bad so you think you can judge him.Trump hates brown children so he can go to hell, etc, etc. This is the Left searching for anything to stick to Trump because the are now in a panic over the mid-terms. It is not about the brown children but about democrat return to power. You just don’t get it.

          • So you really think Trump cinsistemtly tells the truth? Do you believe him when he claims he never had an affair with Stormy Daniels, to whom he paid $130,000 a few days before the election? Do you think a man who didn’t have have sex would nonetheless pay her to keep quiet about what never happened? It would be paying extortion, right? If you believe the guy you call a playboy.

          • You can’t read. I asked you for two Trump lies.
            Stormy is the best you can do? That’s he said – she said at best. What does Stormy have to do with anything at the end of the day? Nothing really. Whatever he and she did it is none of our business. If people decided not to vote for Trump based on Stormy so be it. Why is this germane to your hate?

          • You asked for two examples; I am doing one at a time. I asked if you believed Trump’s denials re Stormy, and you chose not to answer my question. Could it be because you suspect he is lying but don’t want to admit it?

          • Here is lie #2: “THERE IS NO LONGER A NUCLEAR THREAT FROM NORTH KOREA.” ~ DJT 13 JE. 2018
            Here is my question: Do you honestly believe that statement is true?
            □ □

          • Here’s some bonus lies:
            * Trump claims he had the biggest inauguration crowd in history.
            * Trump claims Obama had wiretapped Trump tower during the campaign.
            * The US has a record high murder rate.

            You can either dodge, deflect, and blame the “fake news,” or you can admit the obvious about Trump’s casual approach to the truth. My guess is you’ll keep doing the former so you can keep up the belief he is a man of character.

          • “I am a Christian and a conservative in that order. By education I am an engineer, a lawyer and a bible student.”

            Well, your posts prove that you are not a Christian, and no one can be a conservative and a Christian at the same time. Your posts also do not demonstrate the level of education necessary to be either an engineer, or a lawyer. Anyone with either educational background would know that it is pointless to make such claims, for a variety of reasons, the least of them being – you cannot prove those claims on the internet, particularly with what is technically an anonymous id.

            And your posts demonstrate either an extreme ignorance about the Bible, or deliberate disobedience against the rules and principles it teaches.

          • It’s perplexing that you claim to be a lawyer when you make comments on the law that are provably untrue. The due process clauses of the fifth and fourteenth amendment, as the courts have repeatedly held, apply to persons, not only citizens.This has extended to immigration proceedings at the border and otherwise, as immigrants are persons regardless of their legal status. [Link, PDF] Which is surprising to absolutely nobody who is aware of the bedrock position that due process plays in guaranteeing a rule of law.

            Lying about the law as a lawyer is a pretty big professional no-no, and it is implausible that a lawyer at the bar would ever make such a basic error. So, “lawyer by education”, what do you mean by that? Vanity degree? Non-accredited institution? One pre-law night class at a local community college?

          • You who accuse me of lying when we disagree are disingenuous to say the least.
            Perhaps you should go to the border as an advocate and lecture the Border Patrol on the rights of the illegal immigrants who are flooding our border. All I said was, “Due Process at the border is an oxymoron.”
            Others have said:
            “And Fordham law professor Jennifer Gordon said that some undocumented immigrants get almost no due process in removal proceedings.
            “In 1996, Congress created expedited removal for undocumented immigrants without a hearing. Initially it only applied at the U.S. border. Then it was expanded to within 100 miles of a border for undocumented immigrants who had been in the country less than 14 days.”
            “President Donald Trump announced in January that his administration will apply the program anywhere in the United States to undocumented immigrants present less than two years.”

            i proudly received my JD from a certificate inside a box of Cheerios. From your comment I see you have no discernible legal training at all.

          • Well, I accused you of exaggerating your credentials. It is reasonable to call a mistruth an intentional one when no other plausible explanation remains, such as when you claim a professional credential and then subsequently act in a way contrary to the strictures of that credential in a manner that suggests you do not hold the requisite training and knowledge to have the credential in the first place.

            Fordham law professor Jennifer Gordon said that some undocumented immigrants get almost no due process in removal proceedings.

            The word in bold above is a biggie. And expedited removal, while being a mockery of due process (which is what she was actually pointing out) is still predicated on the bedrock legal notion that judicial process is due anyone coming under the punitive power of the US government.

          • Expedited Removal:
            “A 1996 statute permits immigration authorities to deport people without a hearing, a lawyer or a right of appeal under certain conditions, a process known as expedited removal. Under current policy, the Department of Homeland Security criteria for expedited removals apply to undocumented migrants found within 100 miles of the border and within 14 days of entering the country. The statute imposes no geographic limit and allows for expedited removals up to two years after a migrant has entered the country, raising the possibility that the Trump administration may use this power more aggressively.”
            Your interpretation of my original comment is suspect.

          • Lol….a lawyer whose looking for obamas birth certificate.

            You’d have to be f***ed in the head to have you as a lawyer.

          • Hello.
            I’ve been reading 3lemenope all the way to here.
            He hates, ridicules and mocks anyone who even professes to be a Christian and considers all Christians to be ignorant fools.
            You do know that by this time today your seed of the Lords has been planted and you can move on to the next.
            It would be best to ignore 3lem and move on.
            You’re welcome to go to my profile and answer me somewhere else, you would probably like ‘ Calling all Christians ‘ it’s great forum.
            And nasty people are not allowed to stay there very long, if you happen to be followed, which has happened to me a couple of times.
            Take care, Bob.

          • Given your understandng of the bible and christianity doesnt say much about your skills as a lawyer/engineer.

          • And I am still waiting on that “biggest political scandal in US history” Bob promised.

      • The problem with saying these people do not deserve due process? What happens once this thinking is enshrined in legal thought, becomes normalized, and they then decide that another group also does not deserve due process? Then another, etc.

        And if you think the removal of human rights will just stop with this one circumstance, this one group, you have not been paying attention. Or are woefully ill-informed about human nature. We have rules and standards for a reason. Not to be killjoys but because otherwise some people would never rise to a minimal standard of decency. This includes our leaders.

        Answer this… Without due process, what would stop ICE from grabbing anyone and claiming they are illegal? Including YOU! You say you can PROVE you are legal? Without due process who do you ‘prove’ it to? Where will you show your proof?

        Remember, the law that created ICE gives them the right to interrogate or arrest anyone within ONE HUNDRED MILES of a border, including the sea-shore. Since that means anywhere that someone can enter the country. Including places like Buffalo, Cleveland, and Chicago. Also any airport that accepts international flights. This covers almost ALL of the United States, nowhere in the US would be safe any longer.

        So many of you are inclined to think that unmitigated power and authority will only simplify things, and will only be used ever in ways they approve of, and things will never go sideways. The blood of millions upon millions in the last 100 years alone screams otherwise.

        If you deny anyone due process,
        you deny everyone due process.
        At that point we’re all undocumented immigrants.
        Because if you can’t show your documents to a judge,
        your passport is as useless as your blockbuster card.
        Being identified as a suspect automatically becomes the same as being guilty.

        • Completely over the top for sure.
          Because their feet touch our shore does not mean they are entitled to due process; It just means our system is broken and needs repaired. Activist judges will be weeded out.
          Instead of worrying about ICE you might worry about the senior management of the FBI and DOJ planting a spy in your midst to try and get you in trouble without proper judicial overview.

      • But tjey won’t admit emplying a partisan double standard. I’d have more respect for those who could admit it instead of pretending they are being objective.

  • Will any evangelical Trump supporters admit they applied a different standard about adultery to President Clinton than they apply to President Trump?

      • While you are simply a slanderer.

        A Bible scholar, Bob, would know better than to bear false witness, or call people fool.

      • First of all, Clinton was not convicted of sexual assault in any form. Your Bible refers to what you have just done as baring false witness. But, apparently, your deity ignores the sins of political conservatives.

        Second, you seem to be suggesting that some sins are not as bad as other sins. It used to be that no evangelical would ever say anything like that. They used to say that all sin was equal because it all made one worthy of death. But, apparently conservative theology changes as needed for the sake of political power.

        • I don’t know if any Christians claim all sin is equal, but Christ didn’t teach that at all. For example, He stated in John 19:11, “The one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”

          With regard to Trump, he has engaged in terrible sexual behavior, but that does not disqualify him from serving as the President.

          • The idea of some sins being worse than others was dismissed by American Protestants as a papist corruption, at least when I was young. But, again, it seems that theology can change when it is politically expedient.

            And it is true that Trump’s perversion does not disqualify him from serving as president. That was never the issue. The issue is how Evangelicals can support him in spite of his unrepentant perversion. In the Gospels, Satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world if he would worship him. It seems that American evangelicals have jumped at the offer which Jesus refused.

          • Ok, so these “American Protestants” obviously dismissed the words of Jesus in the Bible. Or they think Jesus was a papist.

          • They relied on Romans 6:32 for their position. But, as you have shown us, there seems to be little point in citing biblical passages. For every biblical passage there is an equal and opposite biblical passage.

            Makes one wonder why anyone should bother.

          • Yeah unlike making fun of disabled people, dog whistling to racists about blacks and mexicans…

            All the things you want in a president.

        • The women he has raped are all over the television telling their stories. In the Me Too movement the women must be believed not the man. Conviction? You are out of your mind if you believe what you wrote about Bill.
          You do not have the background to discuss sin in the bible let alone a concept of “degrees of sin.” All sin is judged the same

          • “All sin is judged the same”

            That’s not what Jesus taught.

            Luke 12:10 New International Version (NIV) 10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

            So we know now that you are not a Bible scholar. And since you were so untrustworthy about the Bible, your claims about Bill Clinton are equally worthless.

          • “The women he has raped are all over the television telling their
            stories. In the Me Too movement the women must be believed not the man. ”
            – One could say the exact same thing about Trump

            “Conviction? You are out of your mind if you believe what you wrote about
            Bill.”
            – What was he convicted of? If you can’t answer, you are bearing false witness.

            “You do not have the background to discuss sin in the bible let alone a concept of “degrees of sin.” All sin is judged the same”
            – I accept your surrender.

          • One hallmark of a Conservative is their self-righteousness and their inability to squelch it. You are the best poster child for that trait. “You might want to take a more self-critical look and make sure you’re following Christianity, and not Trumpianity.”

          • By the way, Ben has not defined the term in his blog either. It is just a typical series of personal opinions stitched together to incite Progressives.

          • “I know what Christianity is.”

            Your posts indicate the contrary. Prove your claim.

            Of course, if you do accurately describe Christianity, then you will have proven that you deliberately reject Christ – based on your posts.

          • A phantom in the mind of the Trump-deranged Christian left.

            Like I said before, we don’t *serve* the President. We are obliged to serve *God*. The President is obliged to serve *us*.

          • “A phantom in the mind of the Trump-deranged Christian left.”

            A statement like that serves on your ego, not God, and because the left, more than the right, actually attempts to live Christ’s commands, your post is a rejection of Christ and God.

          • No you dont.

            You committed the same crime that others have followed in following men…like hitler, franco, mussolini.

          • There’s that haughty spirit of yours coming into play again. You have nothing to support your position except crude dismissal. And when this is pointed out, you act like it is some one else’s problem.

          • The hallmark of a conservative is their deceit and hypocrisy….

            Just like jesus showed when he confronted them.

          • Trump bragged about people like you.

            He could shoot someone and you would cheer him on.

            He was quite open about how he’s using you.

          • Curious: What about the women talking about Trump assaulting them? Should they be believed?

            I’m of the opinion that Bill was horribly in the wrong and deserved his impeachment. Democrats standing behind him was horrible. Unfortunately, as I was not old enough to vote at that point I wasn’t in any position to really have a say.

          • There are either 19 or 24 women who came forward. The primary reason they did was to derail Trump’s election. In that they failed. If they had a legitimate claim they squandered it in my opinion. Case in point: Jessica Leeds.

            Leeds told the Times that Trump grabbed her breasts and attempted to put his hand up her skirt while she sat beside him on a flight more than 30 years ago. “He was like an octopus,” she said. “His hands were everywhere.” His actions led her to flee from her first class seat to the back of the airplane. “It was an assault,” Leeds said. Four people close to Leeds corroborated her account to the Times.

            On the other hand:
            Jessica Leeds. Claims Trump groped her on an airplane. One person corroborated having heard the story.
            Eyewitness rebuttal: When the story came out — one of the first that did — a man who claimed to have been on the flight alleged that Leeds was the aggressor. The man making that claim, Anthony Gilberthorpe, has a history of making unproven claims, including that he had once regularly provided underage boys to members of Britain’s Parliament for sex parties.

            30 years ago, Four people close to Leeds corroborated her account to the Times, One person corroborated having heard the story, a man who claimed to have been on the flight alleged that Leeds was the aggressor. This does not make me believe Ms. Leeds.

  • Support for Trump is a symptom of an empire in decline, naked, afraid and feeling the loss of power and prestige. Enter, a tough talking “Make America Great Again” leader who promises to bring glory, prestige, power, prosperity and respect back to the Empire that is past it’s prime. Trump’s rise is a response to a deep seated fear – mainly death terror. Tribalism always thrives on fear and uncertainty.

    • Nonsense. Trump’s victory was totally unexpected by most especially democrats. He was elected mainly on his economic and immigration promises. He will be judged on the same promises. He has already produced an economic miracle. immigration is next.

    • Spot on.

      Trump’s mantra is like Adolf Hitler’s promise to. “Recapture the glory of the old Germany” (paraphrased).

        • Hitler wasn’t Hitler to start with. Trump’s just testing the waters – demonise whole groups of people (racial, religious, economic), and see how persecuting them plays; then carry on.

          Trump’s “Economic Miracle” – giving billions to the already wealthy and taking it from the poor? I suppose it’s a miracle that he has any but the wealthy supporting it.

          • The President in our country is the head of the Executive Branch. There are three branches of government in our system. This provides the checks and balances that have prevented the takeover of this country since its founding.
            You can try to make an argument about social engineering but you cannot deny the economic numbers. This is one of two major reasons Trump was elected. His support is broad and growing.

          • Germany was a republic before Hitler took over. He slowly absorbed power to where he became a dictator. There’s no reason Trump couldn’t do that, especially with the cowardice Congress is showing in trying to stop anything he is doing.

          • Yes there are many reasons.
            True Congress is woefully divided but after the midterms the Republican Senate majority will be more than sufficient to get immigration passed.
            You may not like it.

          • The three branches are all Republican; the only checks and balances are Republican politicians, who so far have pretty much gone along with everything Trump says: the takeover is happening, now, while conservatives keep pretending everything is normal.

            Economic miracle – take money from the poor and give to the wealthy – is that what you mean? Just what Jesus would have done. The US economy is buggered, but with the trade wars he’s starting the rest of the world will soon be in the same place.

            He breaks treaties on a whim. He is openly racist, openly misogynistic; childishly hostile, casually insulting the the leaders of other countries, allied countries. He is vindictive, cruel, petty, vicious, mendacious; he is dangerous, and you Republicans look the other way or make excuses for him. How can you do it?

          • The democrat talking points you list are vacant and devoid of substance. They will not help the democrats in the mid-terms either. Your analysis is flawed. Republicans are not all in support of the President. The never Trumpers number in the hundreds. Conservatives are thrilled that Trump is turning the country around and so quickly; from the economy to foreign policy to freedom of religion, et. al.
            Your list of negative attributes shows your hatred of the man and blinds you to his accomplishments – but we don’t care.

          • Things that are happening are just “talking points” now – I get it. Taking children from their parents and locking them in cages before losing them is just a talking point. Ok.

            Those repubs who are not in support of Trump are keeping their heads well down, aren’t they?

            And, Turning the country round – to what? Can’t you see what he’s doing? His one accomplishment is staring the US on a road to outright fascism – a normal president does not get so upset about criticism that he threatens journalists and other people who have annoyed him. He lies every time he opens his mouth, with lies that are easily shown as such. He encourages his supporters to attack businesses and people he doesn’t like.

            But you don’t care – you don’t dare that your president is seen across the world as a malicious buffoon, you don’t dare that he’s dangerous, you don’t care about the damage he’s doing to your country and its reputation. You don’t care that he shares – with approval – tweets from the accounts of neo-Nazis, you odon’t care that he has no idea of how he’s going to clear up the mess he’s created over the treatment of asylum seekers – and you don’t care that he doesn’t care either.

            What would make you care? What would have have to do for you to say anything against him?

          • They are facts.

            What would have have to do, since – to take one – the neo-Nazi stuff is not enough for you?

          • No those are partisan facts. The Press is by and large the communication arm of the Democrat Party. They are not journalists. There is no truth in them just opinion like your comments. Terms like Neo -Nazis and Asylum Seekers are just incendiary invective designed to get Liberals like the people on this site emotionally upset.

          • There is no such thing as a partisan fact.

            Neo-Nazis exist: people today who sport swastikas and chant Nazi slogans and the like. They were at Charlottesville. And Trump has supported them. That’s not a partisan fact: it has happened, at least twice that I know of.

            An asylum seeker is a someone who has applied for asylum in a country other than their own. That is not illegal. You ought to be grateful that it’s not something you will ever have to do, and show some empathy for those who do have to.

          • In this case there is. Re-read the story and you will see it was purposefully mis-reported.
            Trump did no such thing. The media said he did. They lied.
            THE PRESIDENT: Those people — all of those people –excuse me, I’ve condemned neo-Nazis. I’ve condemned many different groups. But not all of those people were neo-Nazis, believe me. Not all of those people were white supremacists by any stretch. Those people were also there because they wanted to protest the taking down of a statue of Robert E. Lee.
            The vast majority of the country want illegal immigration stopped not encouraged.

          • No, he had just enough deniability to get out of it, but – crucially – to allow the Nazis to believe he hadn’t condemned them. And he retweeted – with approval – some anti-Islamic lies from a British neo-Nazi group.

            No illegal immigration: people seeking asylum. The vast majority of people wanted to turn away Jewish refugees in the 30s: a proud moment in any nation’s history

            Anyway, someone seems to have done Trump’s bidding and killed some journalists, and righties all over the internet are cheering – happy now?

          • So you believe Trump is a neo-Nazi sympathizer? You are in a small group of Trump hater there aren’t you?
            Immigration is a big problem and Liberals have no solution. Open borders has no support and it should not.
            I am starting to believe you are not all there with that last comment. I know the Media is invested in Trump’s impeachment and you know it but we don’t advocate killing them. By saying someone killed at Trump’s bidding casts you as a wack-a-doo!

          • He’s not necessarily a sympathiser himself, but he doesn’t want neo-Nazis to think that: the easiest thing in the world is to condemn Nazis outright, and he couldn’t do it: he hedged about, allowing Nazis to think he’d done well by them. And retweeting some anti-Muslim crap by a British neo-Nazi group is at best stupid – but he isn’t stupid, not like that: he know who that kind of thing appeals to. (He left his retweet up, by the way; the original tweet was taken down, but he left his: he’s not going to back off, not even with something like that.

            Trump’s talk of the Media as the Enemy of the US people is the talk of a fascist; after the Pizzagate thing (a conspiracy promoted by people close to Trump, with no attempt by Trump to deny it) where someone with a gun went to rescue the children that were supposed to be locked in a non-existent basement by Hillary (Christ, and you call me wack-a-doo), that kind of talk is irresponsible. And that woman from the NRA saying journalists should be curb-stomped: another Trump supporter who won’t back off.

            Anyway. we’ll see how he plays this: but he’s not going to pull back, is he? And there were a lot of his supporters on the internet last night delirious that journalists had been killed, and he wants to keep their support. So, he’ll do a general statement, and he won’t say anything about his words, or the words of his supporters. And then in a few weeks or months he’ll be back on the fascist “enemy of the people” fake news crap.

            It’s odd, hearing Americans talk about immigration being a problem. Maybe you ought to have thought of that before.

            And – again – how far does he have to go before you stop supporting him? Then again, however far he goes, it would probably be fake news and he never said it – that’s how it usually works, doesn’t it?

          • Sorry. You are not a serious person. Your hatred is pretty far off the charts. But you can shift your anger to McConnell now as he is committed to replacing Justice Kennedy before the new session starts. This will lock out Supreme Court activism for 40 years.

          • It’s all liberal tears with you lot, isn’t it? It doesn’t matter how much it will screw everything up, just as long as if upsets the libs.

            It seems that Trump could do anything and you’d still support him. He’s already onto the Nuremberg stuff, threatening the freedom of the press, sicing his attack dogs onto people who have displeased him, etc.

            Get out of your bubble and try and see what it looks like from outside for once. He is not a good man.

          • Bones… it’s been a while! Just a heads-up: a fraudulent Disqus account impersonating me has again resurfaced. This is the 6th occurance of such harrassing behavior.

            While the Evangelical troll can steal my username and avatar, he lacks the tools to steal my profile history. My Disqus account was opened in 2011, remains public, with 4,780 comments and 14,158 upvotes. The abuser’s fraudulent account is set to private, of course, and was opened in June 2018:

            https://disqus.com/by/disqus_n7HXeYjpge/

            Evangelical trolls certainly have earned their abusive reputations.

          • Well, this is the 6th occurance of the fraudulent impersonation account. Then there are also the three private Disqus accounts who post nothing other than frothing-at-the-mouth condemnations targeted directly at me. Then there are the numerous public Disqus users like SamHamilton whose practice of Evangelical communication is limited to obfuscation, derailment, denial, unwarranted attacks, and other bullying attempts to silence those he’s unable to legitimately argue against.

            Why should we expect any less, as you say.

          • Report of his recent rally in S Carolina:

            “Trump calls the media “the enemy of the people,” then brags about a
            woman who was recently interviewed and said there was nothing Trump
            could possibly do to lose her support.”

            “Enemy of the people”, for saying things he doesn’t like – doesn’t that bother you?

          • Since you did not watch the Rally your comments are second hand. But in fact, we agree that the Media are no longer journalists but Democrat operatives. Why should you care what another fellow citizen thinks about her President? Your opinion should count more because you are a Liberal? That’s what you are saying.

          • I read a commentary on it. The Leaders who call the Media “The Enemy of the People” are always fascist. Trump can’t stand criticism. This is a president who’ll call his followers to mob one person who has annoyed him – pathetic.

            How do you work that out? In England newspapers criticise the Conservative Government without being called Labour papers – Conservative papers criticising a Conservative Govt – how about that?

            What would Trump have to do to lose your support? He once boasted that he could murder someone and people would still vote for him. He’s shown that he can take children away from their parents and put them in cages and his followers still worship him. I’m not saying my opinion counts for more, ,just that Trump’s followers seem to be able to support him whatever he does. So, I ask once again, what for you would count as going too far?

          • You are wrong. Trump will not allow the Fake News Media to define him and they cannot abide that simple fact. The person who has called for mob action is Maxine and she should be and will be censured for her comments.

            Your frustration with this President is just beginning. He is fulfilling his campaign promises one at time despite interferrence
            from all sides: Media, Never Trumpers, Democrats, Elites and Progressives.

          • Waters has had threats – including one serious death threat – since Trump misrepresented what she said. What a piece of work he is. And you still support him.

          • Sorry. Water is on tape urging confrontation which will lead to violence. Your side has already shot a Republican Congressman but it is going to get worse I fear. Even Schumer told Waters to shut up!

          • Not violence: she said, not violence She said to ask them about taking children from their parents and putting them in cages. She’s not calling a huge section of the population “Enemies of the People.” (Doesn’t the use of those words embarrass you, even a little bit?)

            On the other hand she has had death threats: and, if you want to talk about sides, your side has killed dozens, hundreds of Americans, including many children; although Trump supporters have said the children were actors and speaking from a script and no one has got killed. This is the kind of person Trump endorses (Alex Jones, for one).

            You still haven’t said what you would consider as having gone too far.

          • I did reply. If this President used his powers to spy on his opponent in the next election in order to try and defeat him and then get him impeached that would be too far. Sound familiar yet?

          • I know what you’re getting at, and I didn’t think it was worth a comment – another Trump defence, isn’t it? Accuse your opponent of the thing that you’ve done yourself. And when there is an investigation into that and nothing found (except Trump’s accusation) you’ll just say there was a cover-up, yes? You’re just doing what all Trump supporters do. Not an original thought in your head.

            Do you think the media is the Enemy of the People? And don’t you think that was an unfortunate phrase to use, what with its association with dictator types?

          • The soft coup executed by the Obama administration to try and stop Trump then to try and hobble his administration has been uncovered and the fumigation is under way: Andrew McCabe, Peter Strzok, Lisa Page, James Comey, James Rybicki; James Baker; Mike Kortan, David Laufman. Next up: Clapper, Brennan, Rosenstein, Rhodes and Power.

            The Media is the reason you don’t know many of the names above. The Media has decided to destroy Trump because he has shown them for what they are. The major Media outlets are the Enemy of the People: CNN, MSNBC, Washington Post, et. al. But there power has been checked. This President is not intimidated by them. Your comment indicates you believe the scheme. People with your understanding obviously do “Not (have) an original thought in your head.”

          • Yes, Liberal Tears – that’s all you’ve got. “Fake news” – like the fake news that Obama’s inauguration crowd was so much larger than his, fake news like him instituting a policy to separate children from their parents, and still having no idea – and not caring – what he’s gong to do about them now.

            Maxine Waters hasn’t threatened anyone, and Republicans loved it when some right winger did the same to Joe Biden one time.

            Trump has called the media The Enemy of the People – doesn’t that bother you, even a little bit? Your president being unable to handle any criticism and mouthing off like some pathetic tinpot dictator? Obama never did anything like that. Trump has attacked and demonised the press since long before the start of his presidency, and this is the result, and you don’t care – those liberal tears taste so sweet, don’t they? Who cares about a few journos getting wasted.

            And you still haven’t said what could count as going too far for him, so I can only assume that you will never think he’s gone too far, whatever he does.

          • Maxine Waters is under review in the House for her outrageous statements.

            There is something that our President could do to lose my support:
            He could orchestrate a plot to use the FBI and DOJ to spy on his campaign opponent in the 2020 election.

          • So, not colluding with Russia?

            (I know what you’re getting at there, by the way. Didn’t happen. He’s a paranoid shitehawk.)

          • You don’t know much because you don’t accept information you don’t like. Colluding is not a crime. He didn’t collude. Where is the proof if he did?

          • The Billy Bunter defence – “I didn’t do it and it doesn’t matter if I did because it’s not illegal – yaa!”. Also the Donald Trump defence. There is plenty of evidence, though Trumpites either ignore it, or accuse everyone else of doing it. The investigation already has 17 indictments and 5 guilty pleas, or people high up in the Trump organisation, which is pretty good going for something with no evidence and not illegal anyway: and why won’t Trump release his tax returns, as he has promised to do so many times? What is he hiding?

          • The soft coup executed by the Obama administration to try and stop Trump then to try and hobble his administration has been uncovered and the fumigation is under way: Andrew McCabe, Peter Strzok, Lisa Page, James Comey, James Rybicki; James Baker; Mike Kortan, David Laufman. Next up: Clapper, Brennan, Rosenstein, Rhodes and Power.

          • You’ll have to be de-toxified when Trump’s finally out.

            “Soft coup” ffs. Trump has broken the law. He is trying to take your country into totalitarianism. And you don’t care.

          • Yeah… Harley Davidson is thrilled… nail manufacturers are thrilled… and how’re those coal miners doing? Looking to create a hundred new jobs? That’ll fix everything, I’m sure.

            Shame about your 401K though. Oh well, nobody actually counted on retiring anyway.

        • Remember, words on a forum are inciting violence, but sentiments like this

          You know, part of the problem, and part of the reason it takes so long, is nobody wants to hurt each other anymore, right? And they’re being politically correct the way they take them out, so it takes a little bit longer. And honestly, protesters, they realize it. They realize that there are no consequences to protesting anymore. There used to be consequences, there are none anymore.

          and

          He was a guy who was swinging [punches] — very loud, and then started swinging at the audience and you know what, the audience swung back, and I thought it was very, very appropriate. He was swinging, he was hitting people, and the audience hit back. And that’s what we need a little bit more of.

          and

          If you see somebody getting ready to throw a tomato, knock the crap out of them, would you? Seriously, ok. Just knock the hell — I promise you I will pay for the legal fees, I promise.

          are not.