Benjamin L. Corey

Benjamin L. Corey

BLC is an author, speaker, scholar, and global traveler, who holds graduate degrees in Theology & Intercultural Studies from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, and received his doctorate in Intercultural Studies from Fuller. He is the author of Undiluted: Rediscovering the Radical Message of Jesus, and Unafraid: Moving Beyond Fear-Based Faith.

10 Signs You’re Actually Following TRUMPianity Instead of CHRISTianity

Are you following Jesus, or following Trump? Here's an easy way to tell:

In the Era of Trump’s America, I must admit that I hardly recognize the very people who raised me. I was brought up by the Religious Right, and went on to become a faithful foot soldier for the cause of conservative Christianity and right-wing politics until my mid 30’s. However, long gone is their commitment to the values they tried to instill in me, and so much else that once consistently encompassed their collective identity.

Sadly, my old tribe seems to collectively struggle to realize they’ve done exactly what they spent the entire Left Behind series warning me not to do: they have fallen in line behind a worldly leader who arose to power during a time of “wars and rumors of wars,” who did so by falsely pretending to be a Christian, but who would ultimately lead them to follow an entirely new religion.

To help my former right-wing family out, here’s the top 10 signs you’re now following TRUMPianity instead of CHRISTianity:

 

10. You spent 8 years criticizing every move of Obama, but the minute Trump was sworn in you started telling everyone that “Christians should respect the president” and that being “divisive” is a sin.

 

Remember the you of two years ago? That’s okay, because I do– and you certainly didn’t seem to believe that Christians should “respect the president” or that being politically divisive was any sort of sin.

Here I am recalling you taught me that, “sin is always sin” and doesn’t change just because culture changes. Huh!

 

9. You think, “but we’re a nation of laws” somehow trumps biblical teachings on how immigrants are to be treated.

 

You didn’t expect me to forget all of those years where you taught me that the Bible is the “final authority for all matters of living,” did you?

Good, because I didn’t– but it certainly sounds like you did. I’m reminded every time you dismiss what the Bible teaches about the treatment of immigrants with, “But, but… we’re a nation of laws!”

I thought you’d said, “We have a responsibility to follow God’s law, not man’s law!” just a few weeks ago. Silly me!

 

8. Your church is planning a “patriotic worship service” for the 4th of July.

 

Let me simplify this for you: there’s no such thing as “patriotic worship” unless you’re willing to simply admit you’re worshipping your own country.

You were the ones who taught me that if God isn’t the focal point of our worship, that it’s sinful idolatry. Surely you remember Jesus saying, “It is written: worship the Lord your God and serve him only”?

Apparently there’s now room for two. Strange!

 

7. You instinctively applaud when Trump threatens to “bomb the shit” out of people, but quickly push back if someone quotes what Jesus taught about violence and enemy love.

 

Jesus commanded we love our enemies, and that we never repay evil with evil but instead repay evil with good. I mean, it’s right there in the red words. I still have it underlined from 1984.

But now when I quote that in response to your thinking that it’s all cute when Trump wants to “knock the crap” out of a protestor or nuke a country, you tell me that I’m twisting scripture.

Sorry, but I think siding with Trump over Jesus is… as Trump would say: Sad!

 

6. You think that having a filthy mouth and boasting about sexual immorality is a sign of being unsaved, but when it comes to Trump you all of a sudden have a “Who am I to judge?” attitude.

 

I mean, c’mon. I grew up under your guidance and I think we both know that neither one of us ever thought we’d see the day when you became an advocate of not judging. You told me that if I had sex before marriage or used the F-word that it would be evidence I was never saved to begin with.

Doesn’t it seem odd to you that it was Trump, and not Jesus who got you to (selectively) soften up on the whole judging others thing? Interesting!

 

5. You think it’s God-honoring to refuse to bow to a national statue, but that you should be fired from your job, kicked out of the country, or even charged with treason for refusing to stand for the flag.

 

Let me get this straight: When everyone obeyed the king and bowed down to the national statue and Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego refused– under the pain of death– to pledge their allegiance to anyone except God, they were the good guys of the story…

But fast forward to present day America, and the good guys are actually the ones who want to force everyone to pay respect to the national symbol? Plot twist!

 

4. You want the nation to return to “biblical values”… except for all those socialist sounding biblical things like caring for the poor, welcoming the stranger, giving food to the hungry, etc.

 

So you really want the nation to return to “biblical values”? You do realize that when Israel lived under God’s law (which you love to quote when talking of same sex marriage) also included laws that mandated the rich be taxed, even down to the food they had, and that the wealth was to be redistributed to the poor and immigrants, yes?

Or is this the one situation where you’d rather not remember that you keep saying, “But God’s law never changes”? Confused!

 

3. Your church spends one month a year celebrating the story of refugee family who fled their violent homeland and secretly crossed the border to safety, only to return home years later where their son became another unarmed person of color killed by the state’s violent security forces because they “felt threatened”…

 

Yet you spend 11 months of the year missing the obvious. Ironic! 

 

2. You claimed Barack Obama’s election was the result of evil forces, but the minute Trump was sworn into office you started quoting verses about how “God picks a nation’s kings and queens.”

 

For real, how does this work? Did God only get involved and start deciding elections with the past election cycle, or did you just start quoting this verse after the black guy left?

There’s a lot in this world I don’t know, but I do happen to know the answer to *that* one. Easy!

 

1. You spent the 90’s saying “character counts” but now say, “We don’t vote for a national pastor.”

 

Ahh, my absolute favorite sign you’re following Trumpianity instead of Christianity.

Version of you from today, I’d like you to meet the version of you from the Clinton administration. You were supposedly so morally outraged that you coined the term, “Character Counts” to explain why you felt Clinton was unfit for office.

The version of you from today? My, my… as I listen to you explain that “We don’t vote for a national pastor…” I am keenly aware of how having the political power changes things. Totally!

So you’re a loyal Trump supporter and a loyal Christian?

I’m not so sure.

You might want to take a more self-critical look and make sure you’re following Christianity, and not Trumpianity. Really!

Benjamin L. Corey

Benjamin L. Corey

BLC is an author, speaker, scholar, and global traveler, who holds graduate degrees in Theology & Intercultural Studies from Gordon-Conwell, and earned his doctorate in Intercultural Studies from Fuller.

He is the author of Unafraid: Moving Beyond Fear-Based Faith, and Undiluted: Rediscovering the Radical Message of Jesus.

It's not the end of the world, but it's pretty #@&% close. Trump's America & Franklin Graham's Christianity must be resisted.

Join the resistance: Subscribe to posts and email updates from BLC!

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  6. A good place to begin in this discussion is to ask what is the God ordained role of civil government. The NT is clear. Govt. is ordained by God to preserve law and order and execute justice upon evil doers. Period. Presidents and politicians who have fomented racial and social divisions and neglected to execute justice upon lawbreakers are in opposition to God’s ordained role for them.

    We are to pray that we have these kind of leaders in 1 Tim. 2, in order that we might “live quiet and peaceable lives in all godliness and dignity”. In other words, the best thing our government can do for us is to create an atmosphere where gospel ministry and Christian charity can flourish WITHOUT INTERFERENCE, either from the government or from hostile societal forces. Government is not commissioned to engage in Christian activity, but only to make sure it is free to take place.

    The left in this country would desire to push Christian influence out of our culture, and in some cases, make it against the law to speak out against evil. That is the kind of government to avoid. President Trump has religious freedom as a centerpiece of his agenda. He is not necessarily a godly man, but the NT instruction concerning human government ASSUMED our leaders would be secular. Nero was in power when these instructions were written. President Trump is fulfilling the role that God has given to government. If we are to pray for that kind of government that facilitates religious freedom, then we should also vote for that kind of government. And when that kind of government is in power, we should fully support that kind of government and give God thanks that His will is being done according to what He has mandated government to do.

    Get off your soapbox, and get on board with the biblically mandated role for government. Government is NOT the agent for social change. The Gospel is. Quit being a social justice warrior and be a minister of the gospel. There’s a big difference, you know.

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  8. Looks like a lot of George Soros Democrats commenting on this article. Better do you homework folks because if Soros and his New World Order have their way, the United States will be destroyed and rebuilt under a One World Government. Most of you will not survive such a change, because before we give up our country, there will be a War like none other ever seen. I do not pretend to know the mind of God, but I do know that nothing happens without his will. If Donald Trump is President, there must be a reason. I personally do not like Trump’s personality, his background or his moral standards. I will leave the judging of Trump to God. I do like what the President is doing for the country and that is why I continue to support him. All you “Snowflakes” better be careful what you wish for, because if you get it, we all will be in that deep brown smelly stuff.

  9. Jkckmkak knows that knows that Donald Trump is Our Dear Leader, the Returned Messiah, Our Lord And Savior, brought to America BY GOD ALMIGHTY to usher in A Thousand Years Of American Rule — with some additional prodding by our nuclear arsenal which we won’t hesitate to use on any country which even questions us or our motives. Amen.

    America: The Shining Beacon On The Hill, Whose Beacon Light Guides Trump-Worshiping True Christians™ Everywhere, Announcing The Return Of Our Lord Through God’s Anointed Servant, Donald John Trump! Amen.

    Donald Trump is inerrant and infallible. There is not a word which comes from his mouth which hasn’t been placed there by ALMIGHTY GOD. As such, Donald Trump speaks for GOD. Amen. Let us worship our Dear and Glorious Leader, Donald John Trump, in beauty, truth and holiness. Amen. ???

    We praise you,
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    And we give thanks for your great glory, Donald Trump. Amen.

    /caustic_snarkasm

    1. Pure bullshit. Trump is a human just like you. He sins, has his faults and puts his pants on one leg at a time. He doesn’t not speak for God, but has done more to bring him back to our wasted society than any President before him. He does not speak for anyone, except the 63 million of us who elected him. To his credit, President Trump puts America first. If that displeases you “Snowflakes” feel free to move your sorry asses elsewhere.

      1. Not true. A president SHOULD be president of an entire country. WAY more than 63 million live here. Shameful.

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  13. I would LOVE to see a Trump supporting “Christian” defend anything you wrote. Will never happen, I know lol Hypocrites just get irate when called out.

    1. Their only possible defense is that anyone against Trump is unholy, against god, needs saving, etc etc. Ie, to keep discussion away from what they believe and what Trump believes.

  14. These are all strawman arguments. They assume that the reason a person voted for Trump was because they are anti immigrant or they don’t care about the poor, etc. You put words in people’s mouths and then condemn them for the words you created on their behalf. I contest each one of your phony arguments. Very weak, and poorly thought out.

    1. Let’s hear your rebuttals point by point. Those are words we hear all the time from “Christian” Trump supporters. Go ahead and contest them. Everything written here is true. Put your money where your mouth is and defend the indefensible.

      1. Fine. I initially intended to anyway, but I knew if this article actually convinced anyone of its validity it would be a waste of time anyway, but since you asked I’ll take each point one at a time because I see no value in wasting hours trying to convince someone who clearly has very little ability to not see the weakness of the arguments made in the article. So here goes point 1 for now:

        [Paraphrasing]” You spent the 90s telling us that character counts, now you say: but we don’t vote for a national pastor.”

        First, like all of the 10 points, this writer assumes to know the collective voice of all those who supported Trump. It takes a lot of huztpah to claim that you can capture the voice of all 63 million voters who voted for Trump in a simple 10-point little article. This carries about as much weight as a Seventeen Magazine article on “10 Signs Your Boyfriend May Be Cheating on You.”

        Secondly, I’ll answer for myself as I’m not arrogant enough to believe I can answer for 63 million other voters. 1) I have never said when I voted that I’m looking for a national pastor, I’m looking for someone who I believe can handle all the duties and responsibilities that are expected of the President of the United States. 2) While one might assume that a pastor (and this article doesn’t make any distinction of denomination or religious affiliation) is better suited morally to be President, I don’t think that one could say that makes him more suitable to be the President. There are many other skills and attributes that the President needs that we can’t simply say that a pastor would be more suitable to be president without knowing what other skill and expertise he possesses to discharge all the duties of a U.S. President.

        Third (since at least one point made comparison to President Barrack Obama), I would also say that I find it short sighted that this article and so many others that have raged against Trump never criticized Obama for such obvious character failings, such as voting for infanticide, which he did as a member of the Senate, or his attacks on religious groups, such as Hobby Lobby, who felt they were obligated by their religious beliefs to not follow some of the dictates of Obamacare when it came to funding abortion as a woman’s right to “reproductive care”. Trump, without question, has demonstrated much more support for Christianity’s rightful repulsion against actions that do not support the sanctity of life at conception and beyond than the previous president.

        I’ll continue with the rest of the points as I can get to them. I would only ask that you at least make thoughtful consideration of the points. In the meantime have a wonderful Christmas with family and friends.

      2. Fine. I initially intended to anyway, but I knew if this article actually convinced anyone of its validity it would be a waste of time anyway, but since you asked I’ll take each point one at a time because I see no value in wasting hours trying to convince someone who clearly has very little ability to not see the weakness of the arguments made in the article. So here goes point 1 for now:
        [Paraphasing]” You spent the 90s telling us that character counts, now you say: but we don’t vote for a national pastor.”

        First, like all of the 10 points, this writer assumes to know the collective voice of all those who supported Trump. It takes a lot of huztpah to claim that you can capture the voice of all 63 million voters who voted for Trump in a simple 10-point little article. This carries about as much weight as a Seventeen Magazine article on “10 Signs Your Boyfriend May Be Cheating on You.”

        Secondly, I’ll answer for myself as I’m not arrogant enough to believe I can answer for 63 million other voters. 1) I have never said when I voted that I’m looking for a national pastor, I’m looking for someone who I believe can handle all the duties and responsibilities that are expected of the President of the United States. While one might assume that a pastor (and this article doesn’t make any distinction of denomination or religious affiliation) is better suited morally to be President, I don’t think that alone makes him suitable to be the President. There are many other skills and attributes that the President needs that we can’t simply say that a pastor would be more suitable to be president without knowing what other skill and expertise he possesses to discharge all the duties of a U.S. President.

        Third (since at least one point made comparison to President Barrack Obama), I would also say that I find it short sighted that this article and so many others that have raged against Trump never criticized Obama for such obvious character failings as voting for infanticide, which he did as a member of the Senate, or his attacks on religious groups, such as Hobby Lobby, who felt they were obligated by their religious beliefs to not follow some of the dictates of Obamacare when it came to funding abortion as a woman’s right to “reproductive care”. Trump, without question, has demonstrated much more support for Christianity’s rightful repulson against actions that do not protect the sanctity of life at conception and beyond than the previous president.
        I’ll continue with the rest of the points as I can get to them. I would only ask that you at least make thoughtful consideration of the points. In the meantime have a wonderful Christmas with family and friends.

      3. Next points. As point 2 is pretty much the same as point one, I addressed this in my previous comment. Point 3: “Your church spends one month a year celebrating the story of refugee family who fled their violent homeland and secretly crossed the border to safety, only to return home years later where their son became another unarmed person of color killed by the state’s violent security forces because they “felt threatened.”

        This is flat lie about biblical truth and history. Jesus was not an immigrant. When Joseph moved his family to Bethlehem he was following the dictates of his government regarding a national census. Therefore he was a citizen, not an immigrant. Later when they moved to Nazareth they were again not immigrants as Nazareth was part of the Roman Empire.

        It is worse than sad when someone distorts history and biblical truth to make a point about a modern day issue; it is shameful. If you want to make a point about immigration to the U.S., make it without dragging it through biblical misinterpretation to give it the fake aura of being sanctioned by God. I repeat: shameful.

        1. When Jesus was just a few days old Joseph, following instructions from an angel, took Mary and Jesus and fled to Egypt to protect Jesus from being killed by king Herod (Matthew 2:13-16). Fortunately when they reached the Egyptian border the Egyptian authorities did NOT take Jesus from his parents and put him in a detention center.

          1. Egypt was part of the Roman Empire at that time, thus this was not the case of foreign immigration. By the way, you should be supportive of detention centers which were put in place by the Obama administration. They are detained to investigate whether the children actually belong to the people claiming to be their parents. In many cases they are not. Sex trafficking has exploded with the increase of people illegally crossing our borders. Without the detention centers we would be, in effect, sanctioning sex trafficking.

            1. Know your statistics… they’re have been fewer border crossings in the last several years than during the Bush administration. Only hypocrites are crying about it now.

              1. Where in my comments did I say there are more border crossings? You brush aside the fact that sex trafficking has exploded with illegals coming into the country and make a non-point about fewer border crossings.

          2. I seriously doubt there were any border checkpoints in those days. There was also no invasion of hoards of migrants flooding other countries without the means of taking care of themselves. In those days, people were more independent and took care of themselves and their families. Not so today, with the invasion from south of the border.

      4. Point 4: “You want the nation to return to “biblical values”… except for all those socialist sounding biblical things like caring for the poor, welcoming the stranger, giving food.”

        These are not socialist values. They are the distorted promotional arguments by socialist ideologues. In every country where socialism has become fully adopted, the citizens don’t give to the poor, they become the poor. You have only to look at Venezuela as a modern day example.

        In less then a generation after the election of socialist Chavez, the citizens are eating out of dumpsters, abandoning their children because they can no longer feed them, and trying to get out of the country. Before the take over by socialists, Venezuela was the most prosperous country in South America.

        By the way, the U.S. and it’s private citizens has contributed more to the aid of other people and nations than any country in history. The U.S. has had more foreigners immigrate to it than any other country in history as well.

        1. Not sure if you noticed, but Venezuela is ONE country out of hundreds. So, what percent is that? This is a poor argument…

          1. Stating that Venezuela is one out of hundreds and then attaching a percent is not even statistically valid, unless you provide a number of those 100’s you refer to that have succeeded. Name one. And don’t use Denmark (a market economy) or Norway or Sweden which have reversed their socialist trends after recognizing the failure of their welfare states.

            Besides Venezuela in recent times you can add Greece and Spain.Within the past century alone you have failed states who are among the worst in history for human rights abuses (China, U.S.S.R. Cuba, East Germany, North Korea, Zimbabwe, Nicaragua, Bulgaria, Croatia, Angola, Guyana, Cyprus, Nepal, Romania, the Ukraine, to name but a few of many – and you can add National Socialist, i.e. Nazi Germany to the list as well)

            Socialism must always lead to an extreme concentration of power in the hands of the state, and anyone with a scintilla of common sense knows that as power becomes more concentrated and absolute it corrupts absolutely.

            1. Yes, but people like you like to tout Venezuela to keep from having universal healthcare and parental leave. Nobody I know wants full socialism. We want policies that benefit the poor and middle classes. And literally every other developed country has them aside from us and one other, including the ones you mentioned like Demark, Norway, and Sweden, which, BTW, happen to have happier populations than we do here. Also, the UK, Canada, Germany, France….

              1. How do know what my views are to group me into “people like you.” I’m not against universal healthcare, but how it is controlled and administrated and financed is the all important question. The details are important. Government will use nice sounding names (“affordable health care”; “universal health care”) to fool people into thinking they don’t need to look into the details.

              2. We have policies for the poor and middle class. It is called pre-school, school and hard work. In America, many people grew up in one room school houses and found a way to make the American Dream happen. The US doesn’t limit what people can achieve. The individual limits what they can achieve. As for the main arguments why some Trump supporters support Trump, 1. Freedom to achieve our God given talents, 2. Disdain for a political party that pushes laws for the slaughter of babies.

      5. You are so brainwashed that any words spoken would be wasted breath. Better get a grip on it though, because President Trump will be around until January 2025.

        1. lol how did that work out for you trumptard? your orange man baby lost and biden is your president lol. sanity has returned to america.

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  16. I have never claimed Trump was a Christian. Or agree with everything he does. However on the immigration issue it isn’t about them coming here, it is about doing it legally. If you feel otherwise then I suggest and encourage you to remove your security system from your home, remove your doors and windows, remove your fence around your yard and allow anyone who wills to come and go as they please. And while you are at it allow them to take everything you own and is dear to you and change it to suit the supposed thing they are fleeing from. How about it going to give them your wife, daughter, or son? Are you going to give up your money, retirement, etc…
    Here is a little background on me. I am disabled (meaning I can no longer work). I wish I could. I loved working and definitely had more money. I served my country as well. But when I became disabled (spine and PTSD) I got denied three times for disability even though I paid into the system for decades. When I finally did get my disability (after numerous lawsuits) my monthly check is well below the poverty level. Yet I am supposed to think it is ok for someone who hasn’t paid a penny into the system to get more than I ever will? How about you? Are you going to pay for me? Or are you just full of hot air?

  17. Basically this shows up really well the selective nature of Evangelicalism’s Scripture use, and that they make things up as they go along.

    No surprise there. There is no integrity in these people at all.

  18. . You think, “but we’re a nation of laws” somehow trumps biblical teachings on how immigrants are to be treated.. Obama treated them the same way, but you wouldn’t remember that, would you?

  19. I am amazed (but probably shouldn’t be) at how little any of these comments have to do with the article above. Seems it’s all about getting your own personal political message across. Screaming into the wind, because YOUR view takes precedence over what you could learn from another human being. Where is the self-examination (search my heart, oh God)? Where is the desire to grow in “the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ”? Stop. Breathe. Reflect.

    1. Thank you, this was, as you say, very instructive. It’s important to try and understand where people are coming from rather than deal in caricatures. Only by listening to them and understanding them can we address their concerns directly and hopefully persuade them.

  20. Despite the new SCOTUS and whatever happens to Roe V Wade, we will see Evangelical Christianity collapse and it might happen very soon, unfortunately it might take all of Christianity down with it. Because these people are so loud and in front when people hear the word CHRISTIAN, they think of these assclowns. fact that they cling to Trump and are even supporting a political campaign of a Legal Brothel Owner in Nevada shows that they are in decline. It is why they are so rushing this new court nominee they know time is running out. Their base and leadership is getting older and young adults are not exactly joining up rather are leaving religion in droves. That is a sure sign of impending doom.

    The declines are slow bit the collapse is fast and sudden. Rome, USSR, Ringling Bros, Sign of the Beef Carver on Mich Ave in Dearborn MI all saw years of steady decline and then one day it all crumbled. Before the USSR collapsed we had the coup against Gorbachev as the old guard made one last gasp for power, but the youth under Yeltsin rose up and shut it down. We may see the youth shut these people down. I am seeing signs that they are active and engaged, March for our Lives and other grassroots voter drives are popping up. We say in NY Oscasio-Cortez taking out a establishment Democrat, she has BOTH parties scared.

    1. Your analysis is self-serving and delusional. The new Justice will make it impossible for Progressives to legislate from the bench but the court will not overturn Roe as our society continues it downhill path to destruction. No one is clinging to Trump. We are just astonished at how fast he is fulfilling his campaign promises. And here is the big take away. It is the Liberal/Progressive base that is eroding in front of your eyes; #WalkAway.

        1. Progressives are in a sheer panic. Armageddon is apparently happening again because Trump actually nominated a pearson to be on the Supreme Court. I heard this on CNN. Damn where is the nearest bomb shelter.

      1. how fast? Let’s see. No wall paid for by mexico. No healthcare that is better than the ACA. No infrastructure plan, failure to get North Korea to do anything, still working with Russia and doin their bidding, starting pointless trade wars. A tax giveaway that helped no one but the wealthy. Bob, you are a fool.

          1. Why not…your only spewing out Fox News huckster news…

            …and besides, did Miss Jane say anything that has no substance, don’t think so and you don’t think so either, because ya couldn’t reply with a concrete rebuttal to her facts…instead ya chose divulging into what ya think as being cute in your nonsensical remark…

            1. You and Miss Jane share the same level of debate – grade school.
              I’ll give one chance to reply with some facts. What does “still working with Russia and doin their bidding” mean?
              If you can answer that general statement I will reply to you nonsensical comments.

          1. Good to know you don’t dispute all the other bad stuff Trump is doing/not doing — also, have you heard of our First Amendment right to criticize our (corrupt) leaders?

              1. oh and don’t forget how your leader trump has desperately insisted it doesn’t apply. You know, his lies about “fake news”? And applauding murderous dictators who don’t allow any dissent. Let me ask you, Bob: how does it feel to have a president who thinks Kim Jong Un is a great guy, when this dictator murders his own people, and doesn’t allow your religion in his land? For all of the claims of persecution of Christians, it’s great to see so many Christians have no problem with Trump applauding such people.

              1. No, he hasn’t. No wall paid for by mexico. No super great healthcare to replace the ACA. No infrastructure plan. No help for miners. A trade war with the rest of the world that will bankrupt farmers. He has seperated familes with no idea on how to reunite them. He has lied about NATO and lied about him being the reaosn that they pay more (that was Obama’s deal still playing out). He has encouraged vermin like wannabee Nazis and Confederates and other bigots to come out from under their rocks. For a country that fought against Nazis, to have a presidentn who says they are “fine people” is disgusting. but I know you don’t have a problem with it at all, Bob. More is the pity.

              2. Like the promise to build the wall and make Mexico pay for it? at least he’s keeping his promise to Make Russia Great Again …

                1. Sorry you are unable to communicate.Your comment about the Wall is premature and duplicitous. One one hand you root for him to fail and on the other you criticize him for not going fast enough.
                  What is the point of your Russia comment besides invective?

                  1. I’m guessing the 53% of Americans who today disapprove of Trump (and the majority who voted against him in the 2016 popular vote) have similar complaints — I’m not rooting for him to fail (the wall is a good idea), Trump is doing a great job of failing all by himself — as for Russia, his bias on Putin’s behalf (and against our allies) is a matter of almost daily public record …

                    1. Trump’s approval rating has been climbing despite historic opposition from all parties. His rating is above Obamas at the same point. The popular vote does not elect Presidents in our system. Thank God that Hillary did not get elected.
                      Trumps accomplishments in the economy and foreign policy are already legendary and now a second Supreme Court appointment.

                    2. Hi Bob — I didn’t vote for Hillary either … I’m assuming you’re a Christian, so how do you justify Trump’s moral unfitness to be President?

          2. If I may, might I sit in for Miss Jane…Praising Putin and Russia on every turn he gets while mocking and criticizing time honored American allies, Trump is a blessing to Putin in creating rifts and fissures between Putin’s perceived foes.

            Russia is the one country that has arguably benefited the most from the Trump administration’s insistence that other countries (including America’s Western allies) reduce their petroleum imports from Iran to zero or face U.S. sanctions.

            By going through America to China to protect himself from current and potential U.S. sanctions against Russia, Russian, Alexander Voloshin, who headed Putin’s presidential administration, was able to secretly invest in Houston based ‘American Ethane’ signed a multibillion dollar export deal with China. Trump was promoting this transaction as a ruse in stating it was ““American prosperity and trade” in deals that would generate “thousands of American jobs,” when in fact it was a front for Russian opportunists.

            When Syria used another nerve gas agent on its citizens that was OK’d by Putin, the world demanded more sanctions be added to Russia and Syria. Trump nixed efforts for the U.S. to impose anymore sanctions onto Russia.

            17 U.S. agencies insist Putin meddled in our 2017 elections, yet Trump defends and believes Putin’s denials of it over the nation’s intelligence agencies.

            Just to add…Why do ya think the entire Russian parliament stood up and cheered when it was announced Trump had won the presidency…

              1. So what ya say…are your blinders that efficient…for a sitting president to criticize our allies, the FBI and U.S. intelligence agencies while lavishing praise on our adversary, who we know meddled in our democracy and poisoned those folk over in the U.K. with a nerve agent that only has Russian fingerprints…is of an egregious nature of unethical proportions to this nation of ours. It is not only a backstabbing affront to our allies, but is a destructive effort to divide the U.S. and destabilize our democracy. Something Putin, ever since he was in the KGB has only dreamed of doing until Trump came along…

                Tell me why Trump always insists on having one-on-one meetings with Putin, except for a Russian translator or one-on-one meetings with Russian diplomats except for Russian photojournalists…to give away more classified info like he did with Lasrov and Kisylak?

            1. I will answer all of your comments. But you have to realize that you have provided no substance, cites, information, comment or really anything but personal opinion. You certainly had the opportunity with Voloshin.

              1. “Praising Putin and Russia on every turn he gets while mocking and criticizing time honored American allies, Trump is a blessing to Putin in creating rifts and fissures between Putin’s perceived foes.”
              This is an editorial comment based on your knowledge without any quotes, dates or sources. It is the kind of statement that no one can respond to factually.

              2. “Russia…benefited…” This is someone’s opinion without any justification provided. Who knows if this is true. But explain why trying to stop oil flowing to Iran is a bad thing?

              3. Certainly you provide us an article on Voloshin “secretly” investing in American Ethane and explain why whatever Trump said was deceptive.

              4. Certainly you can provide the details of why Trump dropped additional sanctions because of what you said.

              5. Your 17 agencies comment is interesting. First it is a lie. There were only four agencies and the other agencies acquiesced without any independent knowledge. You do not know what Trump believes in this matter either. Do you?

              6. Why don’t you ask one or tell us.

              1. Bobby, look it up for yourself, as there are many articles covering these, just type in a few key words…for if I do it for ya, you’ll simply regurgitate ‘fake news’…

                  1. Oh really, just as I s’posed…there are numerous articles and more on these Trumpoid topics. By the way big boy with the little britches…it was indeed 17 agencies, yeah, maybe four did the actual legwork, but all the rest concurred with the findings…what are you saying the rest of our intelligence agencies shouldn’t believe the four’s results and conclusions to their investigations.

                    Ya kinda remind me of that Beatle song, ya know, the one that goes like this, “Cry baby cry make your mother cry, you’re old enough to know better…cry baby cry…

                    1. First article on google, Politifact changed it’s mind from 17 to 4.
                      “17 intelligence organizations or 4? Either way, Russia conclusion still valid”

                    2. It was not 17 agencies.
                      The others did not verify anything.
                      The spread to the 17 agencies was from Obama to give a wide dispersal to all the Trump conversations they unmasked.
                      Yes that is exactly what I am saying.

                      By the way Lady Jane had a complete meltdown.

                    3. Fox News and Trump has ya all wrapped up cowpunch…the Air Force Intelligence, Army Intelligence, Central Intelligence Agency, Coast Guard Intelligence, Defense Intelligence Agency, Energy Department, Homeland Security Department, State Department, Treasury Department, Drug Enforcement Administration, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Marine Corps Intelligence, National Geospatial Intelligence Agency, National Reconnaissance Office, National Security Agency, Navy Intelligence and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence all agreed with the FBI, CIA, NSA and Director of National Intelligence that indeed, Russia meddled in our elections.

                      Your vainlessly trying to ‘trump’ relevance over quantity, there Bobby…simply because either way the Russian intelligence conclusion remains valid…Dan Coates even says so with a “red alert” forbearing Russia is gonna attempt it in our 2018 and 2020 elections…what has Trump done to stop it…nothing…nothing but praise for Putin even after Rosenstein forewarned Trump of the 12 Russian military intelligence officers have been indicted by a grand public jury…

          3. now, it’s great that you didn’t object to any of the failures your idiot president has done.

            1. Idiots more fairly describe Democrat men. The funny thing is that the President is your President also and you can’t do anything about it. Maybe you can find him at a restaurant and try to harass him ?

              1. How lame…when Obama was president where was your patriotism then…besides after today’s Finland summit meeting with Trump/Putin…ya got nothing…

                Besides Trump, the entire GOP are traitors. Even Trump’s own staff admits Trump appeared weak to Putin. It’s worthless debating with you…Trump could take a dump on your thanksgiving table and ya would still praise him…KGB Putin could take a dump on Trump’s thanksgiving table and he would still praise Putin. We’re done here with Republicanism’s facade patriotism…

                  1. What do you call the actions of the Trump/Putin summit…do you agree and still defend Trump or not…no more of your terse evasive run arounds; so go ahead and defend Trump with your feckless mentality. Ya got the last word, because I’m done here with your blind and ignoble drooling comments…

                    1. Based on your rousing endorsement of my previous comments all I can say is your understanding of Foreign Policy is simply non-existent. You want to criticize the President every day for everything be my guest; you are not alone. But you are wrong.

                    2. Good because I need to spend more time studying Russian. According to every Liberal pundit today President Trump is giving control of the USA to Russia….

          4. trying to destroy NATO, attacking our allies, ignoring that it invaded a sovereign nation, repeatedly saying how great Putin is. The poor little fellow has a thing for murderous dictators. Now, Bob, how is it following someone that your bible says is evil. He is an adulterer who should be stoned to death per your bible. he cheats employees which your god says is wrong, He is a self admittted sexual abuser, he claims that wannabee nazis are “fine people”, he does his best to harm the poor and the sick. He has no idea what the bible says at all. And you idiots follow him. Thanks for showing that you have no more respect for your bible than I do.

            1. Your political comments are just Democrat talking points.
              Your biblical comments do show your lack of understanding. Stoning adulterers?
              Lack of respect for the bible is problematic. Disagreeing with what is says is different than lack of respect. A book that has more published copies than any book in history must be considered by religious and non-religious. Failure to recognize that shows your lack of judgment in these matters.

              1. And those points are true. Your president is a failure and works with Russia. Nice to see you not be able to rebut one of them.

                Wow, one more Christian who has no idea what his bible says. Leviticus 20:10 If a man commits adultery with the wife of[a] his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death. 11 The man who lies with his father’s wife has uncovered his father’s nakedness; both of them shall be put to death; their blood is upon them. 12 If a man lies with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall be put to death; they have committed perversion, their blood is upon them. 13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them. 14 If a man takes a wife and her mother also, it is depravity; they shall be burned to death, both he and they, that there may be no depravity among you. 15 If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he shall be put to death; and you shall kill the animal. 16 If a woman approaches any animal and has sexual relations with it, you shall kill the woman and the animal; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them. Good for you!
                It’s hilarious that you want to claim that since the bible’s been published more, it should be considered magical. How many are laying disused in hotels? How many have been bought by Christians to give out and then they are just thrown away? And it’s great to see a Christian defend an anti-christ. And since the Qu’ran or heck, Scientology have been published many many times, per your idiotic claim, they should be respected too. How silly.

                Now, I expect you’ll whine and say you don’t have to follow these laws. However, JC himself says you do, and funny how hateful people like you run to the Old Testment to back up your nonsense.

                1. You made no points. You are not even as good as the bad pundits on CNN. “Destroy NATO” is something you would expect from a child or a Liberal on a temper tantrum. Which is it?
                  You quote Leviticus. Those are laws that governed Israel when they were ruled by a King. Lucky for you that they are not in force in this country. You can’t read either. Magical? Get some glasses.
                  So to summarize you hate Conservatives and the Bible and God; typical of many Liberals. How does this make you better than everyone else?

                  1. Yep, I was right. You are a ignorant Christian who doesn’t remember that Jesus Christ said that his followers are to follow his fathers laws until the earth and heaven pass away. Since both are still here, you are ignoring your savior because it’s tooo inconvenient to follow his commands. And in that same set of verses is where so very many Christians get their hatred for homosexuals. So, we have Christians like you cherry picking the bible to make your god in your image. And yep, magical, Bob, because Christians claim that the bible came from their god, quite a magical being.
                    Thanks for admiting aI made a point, when you quoted me about destroying NATO. Nice to see you lying again. I wonder, do you remember your bible saying that your god hates lies and liars? Probably not, because it’s very likely you’ve never actually read your bible. You just listen to people who tell you what you want to hear. The laws from Leviticus aren’t from when Israel was ruled by a “king”. The israelites didn’t have a king until much later, but of course, Jews and Christians have no idea when the laws from Exodus and Leviticus came into being since the exodus never happened, sine no one has a date for it that isn’t contradicted by the other believers.
                    It’s a shame that you have decided to lie, Bob. Nope, I don’t hate the bible or God or conservatives. I have no problem in correcting them. I do hate that you lie and you try to hurt people. Well, Bob, I don’t choose to lie like you do and the orange idiot you support does. So, I’m at least better than you and him. And funny how you go silent when I have shown you that your god wants you to murder adulterers. How wonderfully dishonest.

            1. The campaign this year, broadly, is to save your sorry ass. When my rights go, so do yours. Your welcome.

  21. I recently saw a social media question that asked “What is one of the hardest lessons life has taught you?” My answer? Religion doesn’t make people better.

    1. Religion is often a kind of magnifying glass. If extreme ugliness is present somewhere (or inside someone, character-wise), then it gets bigger and bigger when seen through that religious lens.

  22. a very good article I am amazed at how many Christians have no problem following an anti-Christ and that all he needed to do is to promise them that all of their bigoted notions would be made law.

      1. ah, the claims of Chrisitans who want to be martyrs and who try to make believe that not being allowed to force what they believe on others to be persecution. It’s sad that they devalue Christians who really are persecuted.

        1. As a pastor I’m as appalled as you are at the level of white evangelical support for Trump — but I still try to keep an open mind that the motivations of some could stem from an honest (if perhaps misguided, as you suggest) concern for their religious freedom …

            1. With many millions I’ve learned the HARD way the truth of Pascal’s dictum, “The heart has reasons of which reason knows nothing”

              1. and it isn’t true at all. The “heart” is ignorant nonsense. All you are claimign is “different way of knowing” and funny how Christians make the same claims and completely disagree with each other. Ob, tell me how I should know that your version of Christianity is the right one and no one else is. What do you have that they don’t?

                  1. That may be the case. You are a typical Christian in that you ignore the parts you don’t like. Again, how should I know your version of Christianity is right. You have claimed so, just like the Christians who don’t agree with you. And pointing out how your claims fail isn’t “hostility” or “insults”. It is pointing out facts. You may not like them, and I understand that. You try to use the Gould claim of seperate magisteria to keep your religion in the face of the fact that it isn’t true. And from other post, that it dosn’t matter if Jesus is real, I wonder about your position.

                    1. [ Reposting this as it was “detected as spam” for some reason … ]

                      With respect, I bracket (but don’t ignore) the parts I don’t like not because I’m Christian but because I’m HUMAN — and being human I don’t claim to know anything more than the little piece of the Elephant of biblical truth I can see/understand for myself, always “as through a glass, darkly.” I practice docta ignorantia, a self-aware ignorance that grants me empathy with every other human being who doesn’t have the full picture of Reality either.

                      Also, I’m surprised you seem unaware that not all Christians are fundamentalists who take a literal and inerrantist view of scripture. Many millions of us progressive Christians around the world try to use our (limited!) reason to discern the Bible’s babies from its bathwater — and the attacks we suffer from some Christians for doing so are as harsh as those made by many atheists …

          1. I agree. A mere decade ago I would have probably voted for Trump while honestly thinking God wanted me too. As bizarre as it seems, and especially in light of Jesus’ teachings, I’m convinced conservative evangelicals actually think God is on their side for supporting Trump.

              1. For me, the context hinges on the culture of Jesus’ original hearers and what is recorded in Luke 19:11, “As they were listening to this, he went on to tell a parable, because he was near Jerusalem, and because they supposed that the kingdom of God was to appear immediately.”

                Common Jews in Jesus’ day longed to be free from oppression; oppression from the Roman Empire and oppression from religion and its burdensome rules. But their idea of the kingdom of God was tied up with OT images of God restoring Israel by defeating enemy nations by violent overthrow. And it seems Jesus toppled that way of thinking by preaching love, humility, forgiveness and compassion, even for enemies, and these characteristics were to distinguish true citizens of his kingdom from those of the world. And Jesus’ followers were to go out and proclaim this as well.

                It seems that the gospels (well, the Synoptics especially) have in view (as the background for many of the judgment passages) the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and that Jesus’ warnings were within that context. So for those desiring for God to be their ruler, to come through the tribulation which would accompany these events, they needed to do it God’s way. Those who resorted to violence and retribution, which was not the way of God, would ultimately be slaughtered (which happened) by Rome. These, the “enemies of God”, suffered a natural fate of violence. Again, Jesus’ comments were in the form of a parable so there was metaphor in all this.

                By the way, I could be wrong on this lol. As a Christian, I try to filter most everything through Jesus’ greatest commandment to love God and neighbor. But in all honesty, no one can claim absolute authority on biblical interpretation and it really irks me when anyone claims they do. Sorry for such a long response but I thought you raised a good point with the reference to Luke there.

                1. yep, he told a parable. Now, tell me what his words of killing people who don’t accept him in front of him “really” means. There is no “natural fate”, i’s just murder. In this parable, JC is telling those who accept him should murder those who do not. You are quite correct that no one can claim absolute authority on what was meant in the bible. Doesn’t that make you wonder why the bible is claimed as the “word of god”?

                  1. “JC is telling those who accept him should murder those who do not.”

                    That’s not what I understand his words to mean. But I guess that’s the thing. Maybe that’s why one should never argue politics or religion. But all the blogs would disappear then ; )

                    “Doesn’t that make you wonder why the bible is claimed as the “word of god”?”

                    We sure hear that a lot, that’s for sure. But man is the one who deemed it to be “the word of God.” The Bible never really defines itself in those terms though.

                    Appreciate the discussion though. Thanks

                    1. This pastor thanks you for modelling Christian civility with a hostile critic!

              2. Let’s for the sake of argument say Jesus is just the literary embodiment of the hope for deliverance of an oppressed people — progressive Christians keep the ethical baby and throw out the dogmatic bath water …

                1. so, do you believe that Jesus Christ, who isn’t a Nazarene, if you look at the gospels, isn’t a real being? This entity, literal or figurative, said that it came to divide families, and that one should murder people who don’tn believe in it. This entity said to obey its father’s laws, which said to murder homosexuals, to murder people who work on the sabbath (somethign that Christians can’t agree on), to is supposed to come and murder everyoen who doesn’t agree with it in Revelation. It seems you’ve created a messiah and a god in your image, far better than that in the bible. I don’t need to believe in something that says genocide is fine and murdering people who don’t agree with me is fine. Do you want to believe in such a being?

                  1. With respect, It doesn’t matter if Jesus is “real” or not — progressive Christians ask (with the holy martyr Bonhoeffer), “Who is Jesus for us TODAY?” — and we firmly bracket the genocidal God of the Old Testament as being created in OUR violent image …

                    1. That’s…. hmmm… interesting to hear a Christian claim that it doesn’t matter if his savior exists. Really? For that makes teh bible essentially worthless, if we are only going to be decent human beings. No god is required for anything then. You’ve made your Jesus in your image and have decided that the bible, which your supposed savior agreed with at least in the “laws of his father” is to be ignored. If this entity was a Jew, then he believed in the murder of people who did all sorts of things. He picked and chose just like Christians now.

                    2. Human beings are always making God/Jesus in their own image, for their own convenience — I don’t mind confessing I do it too, and it’s one of the strongest temptations any Christian faces …

                      Would you mind if we changed subjects and talked about the vastly greater domain of things that you and I may have in common? I engage atheists often, not to win them over to my position but to discover that we very often share a humanitarian ethic/agenda, and could work together to make the world a better place for all of us to share if we could somehow overcome our tendency to attack or demonize those who seem so different from us …

                    3. It doesn’t surprise me that you want to change the subject from your religion being nothing more than a human construct. We may indeed have a lot in common, but I don’t find that it is a good or noble thing to spread nonsense like Christians do. I find it deceitful. How do you think that making false claims as if they are true makes the world a better place? I can work with you but I will not let false claims stand, eve if you think there may be a benefit to them. I don’t like when someone thinks that they can take away people’s right to make an informed decision. I do have a question for you: do you speak out against other Christians when they don’t share the humanitarian ethic we do? In so many cases, I find that Christians won’t confront each other publically because they know that if they admit that part of them are wrong, then they will show that there is really no reason to believe in any of them. I find a lot of Christians tacitly accept the actions of other Christians because of this.

                    4. I’m (further) surprised you haven’t heard of post-modernism, our reigning cultural paradigm, whose mantra is “Your truth is not my truth” — there is no univocal Truth (metaphysical that is, not scientific) we can all agree on, just those parts of the Elephant we find convenient?

                    5. Post modernism is solipsistic nonsense for some people who want to pretend that they know some magic secret to the universe. If this is the truth, then no one should be harmed by putting their bare hand in molten steel. I’d be happy to watch while you did that and hear you claim that we have our own “truth” while your hand incinerates.
                      Now, how do you think that lying to people makes the world a better place?

                    6. Of course we’re talking about metaphysical truth, not hard science — they’re the truths we have debates about, like the validity of religion as a way of understanding a dimension of human consciousness that cannot be reduced to your random materialist account. For example, we can have different opinions about whether it’s really a good thing to remove your hand from the molten steel — why bother saving yourself in your account? why is ANYTHING worth doing over something else? why is the world worth making a better place? There’s also the psychological aspect of religious faith, lauded by an atheist in this recent NY Times article:
                      https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/03/opinion/why-we-need-religion.html

          2. If it were an honest concern, then it could be allayed by the truth.

            The truth is that “prayer in schools” is about school led/endorsed prayer, not students making the individual choice to pray. The truth is that people are allowed to say “merry Christmas”, and some businesses use a more inclusive greeting because they want more people to shop there.

            The truth is that, were this an honest concern, their concerns would have laid at rest many years ago. But, as a means of feeling like martyrs or feeling brave and believing whatever they need to believe in order for their side to win, they don’t need to worry about what’s true.

    1. I think even the most liberal Democrats would trade the corrupt Trump for the ‘Boy Scout’ Reagan in a heartbeat — he seemed to at least have a high moral character, whether one agreed with his policies or not …

      1. His moral character was certainly in line with Evangelicals: dog whistles to racists, our first divorced president (correct me if I’m wrong) which is only okay for Republicans. FWIW, he signed abortion into law as governor of California several years before it became a hot button issue.

        But to your point, he behaved professionally and with decorum and that is something I dearly miss.

        1. Yes thanks, that was exactly my point! — we didn’t have to keep the children out of the room when Reagan was on TV. As for his divorce, this pastor believes God’s grace is available to ALL who are open to it by their faith — but good for you for still believing the things Jesus actually talked about (compared to evangelicals who hate gays but now ignore divorce and adultery) …

          1. Your children see much worse every day and in every way on the Internet. I don’t know many evangelicals but the ones I know don’t hate gays. They hate the judicial system that decided to give their marriage legitimacy. But does God accept these marriages?

            1. “They hate the judicial system that decided to give their marriage legitimacy. But does God accept these marriages?”

              Why? What’s it to the evangelicals? And whether God accepts it, well that’s between the marriage partners and God. I would take offense if someone were to question whether God accepted my marriage to my wife. If people hate the judicial system for legalizing SSM, then the claim that evangelicals hate gays has some validity. It’s not about the Bible, but about bigotry. If it was about the Bible, then evangelicals would hate the judicial system for not prohibiting marriages between the previously divorced.

              1. Changing the definition of marriage is a big deal. It is not about hate. Bigotry is just a term to make it personal and seem mean. Hardly what happened.

                1. You sidestepped the salient point…. “If it was about the Bible, then evangelicals would hate the judicial system for not prohibiting marriages between the previously divorced.”

                  Is adultery not a “big deal?” I seem to recall it being one of the Top 10. It IS about bigotry, prejudice, and ignorance, and yes… sometimes hate. Whether one is willing to accept it for what it is, or not, is beside the point. .

                  1. Your reply is illogical. What salient point. You support Ron’s statement without understanding it.
                    Adultery compared to abortion is not a big deal. Adultery affects two people maybe ten; abortion could be responsible for thousands of potential beings never born.

                    1. Are you sure God calculates harm from our sins the way you do, Bob? SHAME ON YOU for damaging Christian witness with your ridiculous comments like, “Adultery compared to abortion is not a big deal”

                    2. Christian witness? Where? At an abortion clinic with your associates from Planned Parnthood who have decimated a whole race of people?

                    3. And Bob lies again. It’s great to see such a sad racist try to make crocodile tears about the people he hates.

                    4. That’s a cheap shot, Bob — it happens that I’m staunchly pro-life. SHAME ON YOU.

                    5. This is Bob. Bob has claimed that his god is not against adultery and lied about his bible. Bob forgets that his bible says that killing children is fine, and trying to poison a woman if her husband is jealous is fine too. But he probably doesn’t know that those things are in the bible too. The bible says nothing about abortion, right or wrong. However, it does say that homosexuals should be killed, as well as people who work on the sabbath. Bob picks and chooses what he wants to follow.

                    6. I’ll take one more crack at your Teflon Bob, and then I’m done. Let’s use your “reasoning” — you said a single adultery/divorce only hurts at most 10 people but abortion hurts millions. But adultery or divorce happens to thousands of families every day, adding up to millions hurt a year — do you see where I’m going with this?

                      Now of course you’ll respond that adultery isn’t murder and that’s true. But according to Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount, our thoughts can be as murderous as our actions — that’s God’s standard of sin, designed in part to counter our natural tendency to excuse OUR sins but not those of others. If you have a problem with that, take it up with Him please! God’s peace to you.

                    7. No. Adultery is completely contained in individual conduct. It does not have to happen. The individual decides whether or not to participate. Abortion is the active participation of the individual and the corrupt medical practitioner to engage in forcible terminating a life that God created. See where I am going?

                    8. Wrong… I understand it very clearly and it makes perfect sense to anyone not in that river in Egypt.

                      “Adultery affects two people maybe ten” ??? say what? You are beginning to sound like your hero i.e. “I have no organ”. Besides I thought we were talking about SSM not abortion. Please Bob just stay on the canvas, there’s no way you will be able to save face here. Fight another day.

                2. Except the the definition of marriage has changed considerably over the past few thousand years. Consider:

                  – Marriage is considered to be a contract between the participants now, not the participant’s families
                  – Children are no longer seen as acceptable marriage prospects (note that the Bible gives no age for when marriages can occur)
                  – Most jurisdictions across the world outlaw plural marriages (which would have landed David, Abraham, Jacob and all the other polygamous men of the Bible in hot water)
                  – Men are no longer expected to impregnate their sisters-in-law if their brother dies without a male heir, a concept called “levirate marriage” and discussed in Deuteronomy 25:5-10
                  – Wives are no longer considered the property of their husbands. On a related note, husbands are no longer legally permitted to assault or rape their wives.
                  – People of different ethnicities are permitted to marry, in spite of religious conservatives’ insistence that that Bible forbade such unions
                  – Love is considered a factor in marriage now. Love plays little role in Biblical marriages. The only case I know of in the entire Bible where married partners were explicitly said to lone one another is Rachel and Jacob (Leah being pretty left out in the cold.)

                  In short, the suggestion that the concept of marriage is immutable is not sustained by the facts. Marriage has changed over the years, a lot, and ALWAYS for the better.

                  1. Your argument misses the point over and over. God’s definition has not changed; man’s definition has. The validity and acceptance you seek from God to remove the stigma of SSM you won’t get.

                    1. Your god said that no one should get divorced, unless there is evidence of adultery by the woman. Why do Christians like you get divorced? Why does Bob pick and choose?

                    2. Actually it is you who is missing the point. As I noted, I recall well when the defenders of anti-miscegenation laws cited the Bible in defense of their views. I have heard Mormon fundamentalists cite the Bible in defense of polygamy. And I have heard men try to defend the abuse of their wives by saying the Bible says they are the masters of their home.

                      I expect that you will respond by saying that all those people are misinterpreting the Bible while your understanding of it is spot on. Guess what: they would say the exact same thing, and history bears them out. The fact is that it was society which decided that anti-miscegenation laws, polygamy and wife-beating are wrong. People like you side with society out of expedience.

                      And given historical precedent, we have EVERY reason to assume that the same will happen with same sex marriage.

                    3. I am not just citing the bible I am stating that marriage only exists because God created it and explained to man in detail.
                      the bible is not just defending marriage it reveals the Creator and His purpose.

                    4. Well why don’t you tell us where Marriage came from if not from God. Who exactly detailed the concept? When was it invented and why? You can’t even begin to answer these questions.

                    5. Bob, you have a far higher tolerance for abuse and arrogance than I do. A dog can always whip a skunk….usually it just ain’t worth it.

                    6. Bob is ignorant of history. There has been marriage far longer than his religion. So, Bob, since marriage has been around longer than your religion, it seems that you are lying again. Ancient Egypt had marriage, the ancient Chinese had marriage. The greeks and Romans had marriage. The ancient israelites were polygamous. You are a failure, depending on fear and ignorance.

                    7. Let’s see some proof of that ridiculous statement, There has been marriage far longer than his religion, please.
                      As far as being a failure I would look at what you write. It’s nonsense. You have no support or offer of proof for any of those statements. The fear and ignorance comment isn’t even related to the topic.

                    8. Where do all legal and social contracts come from? From we the people. I have long since answered why this is: to secure inheritance for one’s offspring and to secure alliances between families. The basis of marriage is, and has always been, social, economic and political. Religion is a late comer to the process.

                    9. ” God created it and explained to man in detail.”

                      Ok so when did God explain this to say – the Australian Aborigines?

                    10. “Ok so when did God explain this to say – the Australian Aborigines”

                      Through the KJV Bible at the beginning of time. Gosh Bones, you don’t know jack about history ?

                  2. Your points do not show that marriage between a man and a woman has changed over time at all. It shows certain cultures added things to the marriage not who was to be married to each other.

                    1. “Your points do not show that marriage between a man and a woman has
                      changed over time at all.”
                      – I never said it did. I was pointing out that marriage, like all social institutions, does change over time. The popular conservative assertion that marriage has remained unchanged since its inception is demonstrably false.

                      “It shows certain cultures added things to the
                      marriage not who was to be married to each other.”
                      – Read what I wrote again and see how wrong you are. Marriage partners are no longer chosen for a person. Marriages between people of different ethnicities are no longer outlawed (I recall when that was a huge controversy, especially among Southern fundamentalists). Women whose husbands die without producing an heir are no longer required to have one with their brother-in-law, in spite of that the Bible requires. Age is now a consideration with marriage.

                      Almost everything I wrote has to do with who may be married to whom.

                    2. Not so David. “Except the the definition of marriage has changed considerably over the past few thousand years.” Not God’s definition only mans. The problem is man wants to commit God to his definition but it doesn’t work that way.

                    3. Again, according to the Apostle Paul marriage i a concession to weakness. As there appears to be no Christian denomination which preaches this, despite its Biblical grounding, it is clear that expediency, not Biblical adherence, is the principle at work here.

                    4. Hardly. Paul said it is better to get married than burn with passion. You misinterpret again and put words in Paul’s statement that he did not say.

                    5. “But I speak this by indulgence, not by commandment. For I would that all men were even as myself: but every one hath his proper gift from God; one after this manner, and another after that.”
                      I Corinthians 7:6-7 (DRA)

                      Clearly, the literal text supports my point: that Paul supported marriage only as a concession to weakness. But, again, it seems that the literal reading of the text is only to be considered when it agrees with The Party’s platform, which is dominated by expediency.

                    6. Your ability to understand the bible is limited. It is apparent each time you quote a verse. As I told you a while ago you missed the Jewish bible school training and it sure shows. For example, if you notice on Ben’s blogs, many people quote Paul to condemn homosexuality. Then several people chime in and argue that this is not correct for a variety of reasons. You are quoting a verse or two from Paul and expect us to believe that Paul considered marriage a concession to weakness. Let’s see if your supporters will agree with you and your new found understanding of marriage.

                3. So if it’s not about hate, and it’s not about the Bible, and it’s not about bigotry, then just what is it about then?

                  1. Of course it is about the bible. For 3000 years the definition of marriage was one man and one woman.
                    Then 3000 years later a few Judges decided they knew better and change the definition to suit.
                    Where do you think the definition of marriage came from without the bible?

                    1. Lol, well a couple things. We best not use the bible’s “definition of marriage” as a template for contemporary society. There were some very odd arrangements in the scriptures. But aside from that, explain to me, if it’s truly about the Bible, why then are conservative evangelicals not hating on the judicial system for allowing previously divorced couples, guilty of adultery, to remarry? You know that reeks of hypocrisy right? And everybody (well apparently not the conservative evangelicals) can see right through this.

                    2. That is the problem people have had since the beginning; forget the bible it has to be my way. Without the bible there would be no marriage because no one would know what the word meant.
                      Simple, the judicial system governs a lawful society but is not the enforcement mechanism of Christianity. Why in the world would Christians want the government to regulate marriage; the Catholic Church already does that.

                    3. “Without the bible there would be no marriage because no one would know what the word meant.”

                      – Bob, that might be the most ridiculous thing you have ever said, and that is saying something. Marriage has existed in numerous cultures that had never even heard of the Bible. Numerous ancient pagan cultures recognized marriage. Even the Bible recognizes that non-biblical societies recognized marriage. Note the Pharaoh’s reaction to discovering that Sarah was Abraham’s wife after Abraham concealed that fact.

                      Marriage has, historically, had several purposes. It existed so that men could be secure of the identity of their wives’ offspring for inheritance purposes. It also existed to secure alliances between families. Across time and societies we see that marriage has served economic, social and political roles. Marriage as a religious sacrament is, relatively speaking, a new and obscure idea. Indeed, the Apostle Paul states that it is good for men not to marry, celibacy being preferable in his eyes. He permits it only as a concession to human weakness (I Corinthians chapter 7.)

                      The debate in American society has been over marriage as a legal institution. Churches are not required to recognize or perform same-sex marriages. By the same token, the case against same sex marriages requires legal arguments, and “but the Bible says…” is not a legal argument.

                    4. Marriage only existed in cultures because they knew about marriage from God. The “bible” was not available until later but the word of God was always available – until certain cultures disregarded it. And where do you think the pagan cultures, like Egypt learned about marriage in the first place?. You might note that the Egyptians consulted the Israelites after the earth was moved out of its orbit because they did not know how to correct the calendar, etc. They had commuication – even if not the same beliefs.

                      Your understanding of Paul is weak also. Marriage exists primarily to populate the species about 15 billion more or less by now. The rest is just peripheral.

                      Same sex marriage advocates wanted the ability to marry to avoid the stigma surrounding them. It also became necessary to do something about healthcare privacy and social benefits. No same sex marriage would be recognized in general with the ruling.

                    5. “You might note that the Egyptians consulted the Israelites after the earth was moved out of its orbit because they did not know how to correct the calendar”

                      Wait, what?!

                    6. “That is the problem people have had since the beginning; forget the Bible it has to be my way.”

                      Well, that’s not really the issue here. The point being made is how conservative evangelicals cherry-pick scripture to suit their own prejudices. Like, we’re against SSM because we find no record of it in the Bible and so hate the judicial system for legalizing it. But, even though the Bible speaks against divorce and remarriage in certain circumstances, we have no problems with the judicial system for legalizing that one cause society accepts it and our churches are full of those couples.

                      “Simple, the judicial system governs a lawful society but is not the enforcement mechanism of Christianity. “

                      Wait, so first you insist it really is about the Bible with respect to hating the judicial system for legalizing SSM. Now you’re saying that the govt “is not the enforcement mechanism of Christianity.” So which is it?

                    7. Of course it is. The word of God has been available to mankind from the beginning printed or not. The concept of marriage being between a man and a woman is from God. This issue is much broader than Evangelicals as all of Christianity knows that marriage is between a man and a woman – so several billion give or take. And it had been that way since man was put on earth.

                      Who do you know that doesn’t cherry pick scriptures to suit? No one. I did not suggest any such thing. You are not interpreting correctly.

                    8. “This issue is much broader than Evangelicals as all of Christianity knows that marriage is between a man and a woman.”

                      Well, not “all of Christianity” since there are Christians in a same sex marriage. But regardless, an entrenched view held over centuries literally has no bearing on whether or not God himself accepts one’s marriage. Unless you presume to think organized Christianity always speaks for God. Do you think Christians we’re speaking for God over centuries of condoning the enslavement of others?

                      “And it (‘marriage is between a man and a woman) had been that way since man was put on earth.”

                      No it hasn’t. The OT is full of polygamous marriages even among the patriarchs. And nowhere do we find a record of God condemning it. The point is that one absolutely positively cannot find a template in the Bible governing marriage to be singularly defined no matter how much you want it to be that way.

                      “Who do you know that doesn’t cherry pick scriptures to suit?”

                      The problem is not when one does such a thing, but rather when one does it with a presumed authority. I have no problem when someone says, well I believe the Bible says such and such, but I realize other passages would call my view into question. Unfortunately, what we often get is, well the Bible says such and such and that settles it because God said it (while pretending the other passages calling such a view into question somehow don’t count).

            2. So just because kids see bad stuff on the internet that excuses the vileness that Trump exposes them to?!? and you should leave God out of it, given Trump’s track record of adultery, paying off porn stars, owning casinos with strip clubs, bragging about groping women, cheating contractors, etc etc …

              1. Trump is not vile. He is an American businessman who loves his country; unlike you who are disgusted by your country. Trump’s personal conduct is none of your business any more than someone who is sitting next to you in church. You list his “sins” as if you are his confessor; you are not. Because he decided to run for office his opponents proffered all this garbage and present it like it is fact. You believe it because Trump is not a Progressive/Liberal and you hate the fact that the Great Criminal, Hillary Clinton, did not win. That’s all there is to your argument. It is little more than a childish tantrum disguised as a biblical affront.

                1. Bob, you’re obviously not even reading my responses to you (e.g., I didn’t vote for Hillary). My country doesn’t disgust me, just the elected leaders who undermine and betray its values. Were you equally respectful of Bill Clinton’s “privacy” when he was president? Because I wasn’t, and thought he should have resigned or been removed from office — his amorality was just as destructive to our country as Trump’s. SHAME ON YOU.

                  1. Of course I read your responses. I have responded to you ad nauseam.
                    Your idea of when a President should resign or be removed is not what our laws say.
                    Destructive to our country is removing God from all public places, allowing abortion to be used as birth control and ruling SSM to be called a marriage. Shame on you for not speaking up on this site about that.

                2. “Trump’s personal conduct is none of your business any more than someone who is sitting next to you in church“

                  This coming from the guy who thinks the govt should interfere in the private lives of gay folks by prohibiting them from marrying lol.

                  1. Your thinking is becoming clouded on this issue. The government is the vehicle that allowed SS couples to “marry.” My point is that the designation ” marriage” is inappropriate for SS couples.

                    1. Why should you care? That’s their own private life. Just like Trump’s is nobody’s business right?

                    2. You’ll pardon me for not buying the God bit. It seems like you believe that God wants you to continuously look the other way when it comes to Trump and his sexual indiscretions, while simultaneously decrying as immoral the actions of a same sex monogamous relationship between two people who love and are committed to one another. So to you, God apparently is all about accepting wealthy, straight, GOP white males who like to sleep around (providing it’s the opposite sex of course), but not about accepting LGBT folks in a committed monogamous SSM.

                    3. Sorry. The LGBT is no more loving and committed than any other marriage – and that record is piss poor.
                      Why do you focus on Trump other than irrational hatred of the current President. What responsibility do you or I have for his personal life. He has a big job to do and he inherited another large mess left by Obama and his Utopian visions of
                      the world. Let him do the job; critique his performance but let this petty, unrelenting personal attack go.

                    4. “The LGBT is no more loving and committed than any other marriage – and that record is piss poor.”

                      How can you SO miss the point here? The issue is not that all SSM are committed and monogamous. No one claims that. The point is why you would deny the opportunity to those that ARE, while simultaneously looking the other way with respect to Trump’s infidelity.

                      “Why do you focus on Trump other than irrational hatred of the current President.”

                      Since when does calling out illogical biblical standards over how you view SSM vs how you look the other way on Trump translate to me hating Trump? I’m not unrelentingly attacking him. I’m just unrelentingly pointing out your inconsistencies.

  23. All of you Democrats/liberals are uninformed dolts. Informed people know communist vote Democrat, socialist vote Democrat, Islamist vote Democrat, Abortionist (baby killers) vote Democrat, America haters vote Democrat. LGBT & Pedophiles vote Democrat. Prisoners vote Democrat, illegals vote Democrat, Drug runners vote Democrat, Human traffickers vote Democrat, Muslim refugees vote Democrat, Muslim terrorist in America vote Democrat, welfare recipients vote Democrat. non-workers vote Democrat, atheist vote Democrat, and the “dead” vote Democrat. Therefore, Democrats = evil and what’s wrong in America. That leaves hardworking Patriots and Judeo-Christians who voted for President Trump. We won the election by a land slide so accept it. We had to accept and bare Muslim Obama’s treason against us and America for 8 years. Don’t start crying, Snowflakes because you can’t comprehend the truth.

    1. Much of what you say is sadly true.

      Obama was not a Muslim as far as I can see but he was a massive Islamic sympathiser a bit like Corbyn in the UK.

          1. Lol trump announces $ 110 billion arms sales to Saudi Arabia.

            Some of those missilles blowing up yemeni kids are US.

            Thats not data.

            Its from Trump himself.

        1. Yes Trump loves money too much he should as all countries should cut ties with Saudi Arabia and other evil Islamic nations agreed!

          1. Not only has he not cut ties with Saudi Arabia he’s financing their bombing of Yemen.

            Trump is actually a bigger supporter of Muslims than Obama was.

            Once again your lies are found out.

            1. What lies? Why do you post slanders and attacks against me? I am trying to be reasonable and even agreed with much of what you say.

              Trump calls Muslim terrorists out and is not politically correct about it which is great.

              1. Trump gave the terrorists $110 billion in weapons.

                And you accuse obama of being a muslim.

                You’re a f###ing idiot.

    2. I can begin to see why you are a Trump supporter. He is unhinged and you are. He plays fast and loose with facts, so do you. He slanders, so do you. He traffics in conspiracy theories, ditto. I will repeat what I said before, you deflect. You do not answer the accusations or even offer support for your bolstering up of a tyrannical, misogynist, racist president. When threatened, he lashes out blindly, so do you. You prove the general observation that the overwhelming white evangelical support for an evil man, was about xenophobia and the eroding of white privilege in America. It is racism in the guise of religion. The continued vitriol leveled at our first Black American president by white evangelicals is so telling. Burned any crosses lately?

      150 years have passed since the American Civil War and the blinding hatred of some white Christians is still present. A hatred that sought the enslavement of blacks, and murdered any non-whites that stood up to their bigotry. Lest we forget, the Baptists split in two over the “right” to own other humans based on the color of their skin. We cannot forget the evils perpetrated by “good” white Christians in the Deep South, the lynchings, firebombings and denials of basic human rights to non-whites there. The continued misogyny within the S. Baptist church. You are a deeply disturbed individual, in denial of your own bigotry and racist tendencies. Sadly, you are not alone, or unusual amongst Trump supporters claiming religion but denying the power thereof. I pity you in your delusion.

      1. “… in denial of your own bigotry and racist tendencies.”

        You may be giving sandi too much credit there Kirk. He might proudly admit it.

  24. The old Democratic Party logo. as it had existed for decades:


    Note that the donkey, while technically a beast, is mentioned several times in scripture as being present at or even participating in powerful miraculous and holy events, such as Balaam’s donkey talking to him to warn him about the angel he couldn’t see, the pregnant Mary riding a donkey from Nazareth to Bethlehem to give birth to the Savior, and 3⅓ decades later said Savior riding a donkey colt in triumph through the gates of Jerusalem and being greeted with Hosanahs and palm leaves, on His way to give His life for sin.

    Note also the four stars: all five-pointed, and all right-side up, like the ones on the U.S. flag, but also like the ones representing the Star of David on many a Nativity scene and/or Christmas tree put up by faithful Christians.

    Now let’s compare the classic Republican Party logo of old:

    Still a beast, and one not mentioned in the Bible, though the description of “behemoth” in Job sounds a lot like one. Yet behemoth is traditionally considered a demonic beast!

    Note the stars: all five-pointed, but all upside-down. Where else have we seen upside-down five-pointed stars?

    Oh, yeah:

    ♫♪ Bum-ba-dum-ba-dum | diddly-iddly-do-dah ♪♫
    ♪♫ One logo’s stars are | not like the oth-ers, ♫♪
    ♫♪ One logo’s stars just | do not be-long. ♪♫
    ♪♫ Can you | tell me which stars are | not like the oth-ers, ♫♪
    ♫♪ By the | time I fin-ish this | song? ♪♫
    (Now, granted, the upside-down stars of the Satanic Temple and Church of Satan logos are inside circles, and the ones on the classic GOP logo aren’t.)

    But those are the old, classic logos. Around 2014, both major parties underwent rebranding which included changing their logos. The Democratic Party dumped their old logo entirely and came up with an all-new one, with no beast at all:

    Just a plain bold sans-serif sky-blue “D” inside a teal-blue circle, and some slab-serif logotext in teal below that, with a slogan (which I don’t think is part of the actual logo) in red below that.

    Before I show you the new Republican Party logo (which you can verify really is their current official logo by going to their GOP·com website, calling up the Press Releases section from the footer menu, and viewing the Press Release of your choice — any of them will display the current official GOP logo right up top, nice and big), do know that many people noticed this thing about the stars being upside-down and their Satanic implications years ago, and the GOP was aware of this. Since, like the Democrats, the GOP was doing a rebranding including a new logo, they had a golden opportunity to correct this and get rid of the Satanic-seeming upside-down stars.

    So what did they do with this opportunity? They doubled down on the Satanic imagery. First, let’s read from Revelation Chapter 17:3 (KJV):

    “… I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names [or symbols?] of blasphemy,…”

    And now, the current official Republican Party logo (I’m getting this right from their site, from a Press Release page):

    Behold, a literal scarlet-coloured beast!!

    Stars still upside-down. And remember how I said that the stars weren’t inside a circle in the classic logo? They are now! Granted, it’s one circle enclosing the whole logo, but still, the stars are inside a circle, and they weren’t before. Gone is the blue, replaced by red, and not just any red, but a noticeably brighter shade of red than the U.S. flag-like red of before. There’s a word for that shade of red: scarlet!

    Also, the GOP is allied with the Alt-Right, which speaks all manner of unclean things that the right-wing politicians and Dominionist preachers themselves wouldn’t publicly say. Wait, that sounds familiar:

    And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

    — Revelation 16:3 (KJV)

    And who is the chosen mascot of the Alt-Right? Pepé the Frog!!

  25. For those that think socialism is a 4 letter word, think about our roads, police, fire, schools, military, government, post office, Medicaid, etc…we all pay taxes, and the government turns around and decides what to pay for in regards to everything I listed. I don’t complain about the semis that use the roads way more than I do, or that the national guard will be sent in to help people displaced by hurricanes, or that the neighbors have called the police multiple times, or the fire dept raced to put out a fire. The government is here to do a job for the good of the people, not to pick and choose who gets tax breaks, and who should be able to afford health care, schools, and groceries. The churches do a lot for their people but not everyone goes to church, do they? Therefore, since we all pay taxes…property, income, and sales, there should be multiple ways to spread the wealth to the people, and the government could do a much better job of taking care of all it’s people, not just the wealthy.

  26. I’m not a Christian, but if I was, I would be struck at how similar Trump is to the description of the antichrist in the Bible.

      1. On what grounds do you make your false accusation? On the grounds that President Obama is half Black?
        That President Obama had NO scandals? Or that President Obama shows compassion, respect and decency to others?

        C’mon TOAD … enlighten us as to your reasoning for calling President Obama the ‘antichrist’ … and I’ll show your sorry
        TЯ卐mp-Humping αss what a lying hypocrite you are.

        If you still support TЯ☭itor-TЯ卐mp after all the crimes and indecency he’s committed, then you already have the Mark of the Beast in your forehead and hand. And you put it there yourself!

    1. I am a Christian and I admit I had trouble believing the account of the anti-Christ; how could someone come to power with the full support of the political powers and also the full support of the religious establishment, all the while seeking only to advance his own self-serving power base and committing horrible acts against innocent people?
      It seemed implausible to me that someone so loathsome could fool so many people, but the reality of Trump’s political/religious ascension seems to fit the anti-Christ account exactly.

      1. Actually, TЯ☭itor-TЯ卐mp absolutely fits the description of the Beast. (Revelation 13).
        Some of the prophesies in this chapter have not yet been fulfilled.

    2. I’ve *always* said this and so has my Catholic mom!
      It’s astounding how many on the right accused Obama of being the antichrist only to turn around and vote in Trump!

    3. I came from nearly 10 years inside of Evangelicalism, and I saw the rise of RW “Spirit-Filled” Christianity as basically being Creepy Voodoo from the Pits of Hell.

      There is NO love in Evangelical Christianity.
      Just … emphasis on Obedience, and on Accepting Pastoral Horseshit, even when it’s the opposite of anything Jesus ever taught.

  27. Heh. I hear the not a true christian line every so often. the only comeback i have is, judge not lest you be judged. Oh wait, thats the big reason i left christianity, because most christians point fingers at other christians rather than accept and acknowledge, that something about the religion makes people act the way they do.

    1. Baloney! Christ warned us to “Beware of False Prophets and Wolves in Sheep’s Clothing”. TЯ☭itor-TЯ卐mp’s own words judge him.
      We don’t need to do any judging.

      Jesus also said: “A tree is known for its fruit” and “But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person”.
      – Matthew 15:18

      1. Sure. Surely you can hold up when the Media, the Establishment and the opposite Party attacks everything you do and say in an unrelenting 24/7 attack on the Presidency of this country.

  28. I experienced Christ as the consciousness of the Sun, during a period of several years when I was using a legal substance intermittently. I wrote an ebook about it which is free to download in pdf form, and it is also available on blogger, the links are below:

    link to my free ebook, “Messages from the Sun God, Jesus Christ”
    http://www.mediafire.com/file/riox16d87g86626/Messages_10.pdf/file

    link to the ebook on blogger: https://messagesftsg.blogspot.com/

    blog http://www.jesuschristsungod.com

            1. So Christians who sin aren’t christians then?

              No

              They are followers of the Christian religion just like the murderous crusaders.
              Its like saying extremist muslims arent muslims.

              1. Incorrect. Christians who repent from sin can certainly remain in good standing before God.

                Individuals who don’t lose their relationship with him for God does not tolerate those who love to do evil:

                God said, “When I say to someone wicked, ‘Wicked one, you will surely die!’ but you do not speak out to warn the wicked one to change his course, he will die as a wicked man because of his own error, but I will ask his blood back from you.

                But if you warn someone wicked to turn back from his way and he refuses to change his course, he will die for his error, but you will certainly save your own life.

                ‘“As surely as I am alive,” declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, “I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that someone wicked changes his way and keeps living. Turn back, turn back from your bad ways, for why should you die?” -Ezekiel 33:8, 9, 11

    1. Ah yes, the hypocrisy of conservative Christians who worship an adulterous divisive arsehole of a president.

      That is no surprise at all.

    2. Thanks for this video. It is a good summary of the current state of destruction politics. I and many other are praying and have prayed. That is why I believe God caused President Trump to be elected; to delay the inevitable end times destruction coming on the whole world! People are scoffing like many on this site but that does not change the march of evil hellbent on its own slaughter; a proud and evil generation is among us just as prophesied.

            1. Lol if you’re christians, I’m quite proud to be referred to an anti Christian troll.

              Because Jesus would be as well.

              He has nothing to do with lying hypocrites like yourselves.

      1. This is the same Trump who gave $110 billion in arms to Saudi Arabia…..

        God had nothing to do with trump being elected.

        The simple fact is he bs and lied his way to the presidency and his bs and lies have been found out.

        And your hypocrisy is there for all to see.,

        1. It’s pathetic over here in the States how right wing Christians have sold out to Trump. A friend of mine said that Trump didn’t make these people a certain way. He merely exposed them for who they really are.

          These people primarily love Trump because to them he is the antithesis to Obama’s, a man they still hate who from all indications actually loves his wife, and doesn’t suffer from narcissistic disorder. They hate him for several reasons. (1) He is tolerant of other faiths (which to them makes him godless), (2) he’s a democrat (which to them means he is an enemy for taxing their riches to share with the poor; means he is a baby killer because he doesn’t believe in forcibly interfering in a woman’s body; means he is evil because he has the audacity to not discriminate against gays; means he wants to be a dictator because he’s going to take away all their guns lol); (3) he is black; and (4) because his name sounds like a middle easterner (which to them means he’s a Muslim, which equates to terrorism against white people).

          1. If you listened to his latest campaign speech, I heard that Obama referred to himself 180 times with the word I. That’s a pretty good indicator of his narcissism. But then many politicians are narcissists. All believers in abortion and those who claim it is somehow a women’s right are deceived. Who would support killing children while screaming about the Rights of Illegals except an irrational person? Mostly he is hated for hating America who gave him the awesome opportunities he has had. I detest the fact that he tried to start the current Race War in this country first with Henry Gates then with Trayvon Martin all the while ignoring the black on black murders in Chicago and the other Democrat controlled major cities. Obama had the opportunity of a lifetime to Lead this Country out of Race Issues but wasted his opportunity dreaming of Big Government with fiascoes like Obamacare, Carbon Tax, non-fossil fuel power like solar and wind.

            1. You’re an idiot.

              The narcissist here is your false messiah.

              You’ve sold your soul just like those pathetic merkins in Germany in the 30s.

              And yeah they believed hitler loved Germany.

          2. If Obama ran against Trump, Obama would win a third term.

            That’s why Trump never ran against Obama.

            Trump won because the other candidate was not a good candidate. And he was able to tap into the populist dislike of the Clintons.FFS he had 3 different policies on abortion in one day.

            It will be interesting to see if Dems come out in the mid terms. OVer 30 seats have been flipped by the Democrats since Trump won and some of those were in counties that Trump won.

            I think Trump’s worried hence the idiotic video.

            And the less said about the White House the better.

    3. If one hundred of the country’s most respected psychiatrists presented me with affidavits stating they had examined you and found you to be insane, it would no more convince me of your insanity than your video clip does.

        1. Lol….none is more closed than your s moron.

          The Trump worshippers are out in the open now.

          I’m not surprised.

          He needs them.

  29. Ben the author – like so many liberals – simply fails, completely and totally, to understand how and why Trump was elected President.

    Trump wasn’t really elected President. Hillary was denied. That’s it in a nutshell. The hatred for Hillary’s decades of corruption was so visceral that people decided that she was even less appealing than Trump – and that’s saying something.

    Learn your lesson, or Trump will be elected to another 4-year term.

    1. Is there any actual evidence in support of corruption on Hillary’s part?

      How does it stack up against evidence in support of Trump’s corruption?

        1. That’s a cheap excuse for not providing any at all.

          You could bring up the emails… of which there’s been much investigation and no corruption found.

          You could bring up Benghazi. See above.

          You could bring up Whitewater. See above.

          You could bring up a conspiracy of satanic pedophiles who operate out of the basement of a pizza parlor that doesn’t actually ahve a basement.

          The “corruption” of Hillary Clinton is nothing more than a decades long smear campaign. First, it was a means of getting at her husband. Then, it was just easy. Then, it was to discredit her service in political positions. It isn’t real. It was just something conservatives believed because they wanted to believe something bad about Democrats.

          Trump, on the other hand, has evidenced corruption in Trump University, in the Trump Foundation that mainly uses other people’s money for his own benefit, has ties to Russian mafia, etc.

            1. Do you have any actual evidence of corruption on Hillary Clinton’s part? Or, do you have yet more conspiracy theories?

                1. Considering that the answers you’ve given are easily the answers one can give to cover up a complete lack of such evidence, I’ll have to conclude that you don’t have any.

    2. I agree with your opening completely. I also agree that Hillary’s baggage hurt her but she also lacked the charisma needed to win. But I would argue that Trump had a How else do you explain Pennsylvania and Florida and Michigan?

    3. Why Trump was elected is not the subject of the article. There are countless discussions on that matter elsewhere. I suspect I know why you feel so compelled to ignore the author’s points and try to change the subject.

      1. It’s simple, Matty. This ridiculous article is nothing more than a crying sobbing attempt to make Christians who voted for Trump look like villains. So yes, it has EVERYTHING to do with why Trump was elected.

        It’s bandwagoning at its finest/lowest.

        1. VolvoDriver – it is hardly bandwagon jumping – me thinks you don’t know what that means. This is simply an argument, made up of 10 separate points, that states that it is hypocritical of a Christian who was vocal, for example, about Obama and/or Clinton to then be supportive of Trump. In most points legitimate or otherwise that Christians have used to attack POTUS 42 or 44, Trump is easily demonstrable to be much much, worse. You are simply ignoring the argument and resorting to irrational name calling. In effect you are saying “to heck with facts or logical arguments, I love Trump and hate Hillary/Obama/progressives/whatever”. And that, as an argument or a rebuttal is worthless. Why was Trump elected? In part because the DNC turned off many of its members by shafting Sanders, in part because Hillary is very uncharismatic and in part because Trump knows how to sell and how to appeal to people’s lower instincts such as inherent racism. Add to that poor targeting by the DNC and a couple of stupid gaffes by Hillary and there you have it.

        2. Everything, eh? I believe a big part of the reason Trump got elected, VD, is that so many Americans think “It’s simple” way too often on way too many issues. Their intellectual laziness prevents them from doing otherwise.

          This article is about glaring hypocrisy on a head-slapping level. It’s not directed at all Christian Trump voters. It’s directed at all fundamental, born-again, Bible-believing Christian members of Trump’s base–and more particularly, the ones the writer knows personally and any who would defend those in the examples he gives.

          1. I don’t disagree – except to note that the overwhelming majority of these “hypocritical” evangelical voters simply chose what they believed to be the lesser of two evils.

            I just talked to one the other day. My 83-year old father. He voted for Trump because Trump isn’t Hillary. And he has nothing good to say about Trump the man, but is actually rather pleased by what Trump the President is doing.

            1. Hitler did some good things too……

              And the evangelicals loved him….and saw him as the lesser of two evils.

        1. Actually, it could, but it would depend on who you *did* vote *for*.

          I”m curious, was it Hillary? Ha ha, just kidding!

        2. Derpy we know that Trump won because the other candidate was electoral poison who couldn’t even be bothered visiting the rust belt states.

          She was the perfect candidate for Trump.

          What I think you are seeing and will see is that the Democrats who refused to support Clinton will be out in force in the mid terms as seen by the Dems flipping 35 seats since 2016 and some of those were in electorates Trump won.

          edit: Make that 43

          Democrats flip 43rd state legislative seat since Trump took office

          https://edition.cnn.com/2018/06/12/politics/democrats-flip-state-legislative-seats/index.html

          1. You may very well be right. Lots of spoiled liberal Millennials stayed home and pouted because Clinton and the DNC machine screwed Bernie.

            As per the Dems taking Congress? It’s almost guaranteed. When one party holds both the White House and Congress, the mid-terms ALWAYS change that.

                1. So derpy to summarise:

                  You disliking Clinton = wonderful morality

                  Dems not liking clintion = sooks who are pouting.

                  Yeah we get that.

                    1. Ok so lets get this right.

                      You not liking clinton = wonderful fantastic judgement

                      Dems not liking clinton = whiny sooks

                      Yeah I think you’d need Jack Daniels to get your head around that.

      1. When was the last time a President, whose party also controlled Congress, did NOT lose the majority during this first mid-term? Oddly enough, Trump lost a lot less seats than did Obama.

        Go figure.

  30. The shoe fits as well on the other foot. These ten items are more a test of partisanship than Christianity. Obama was as divisive, and people who “worshiped” him still don’t see his lies as lies. Same with Trump, those who are enamored see his lies as mere details, or as deliberate sleight of tongue, or in other ways excusable. I have stopped fretting about what politicians say and focus on what they do. Trump has addressed the March for Life, has obtained some concessions from North Korea that were actually delivered on (the remains), and then there is the economy. And the freedom from government tyranny of forcing you to buy insurance of the government’s choosing (they gave three options only!).

    1. Obama actually entered his presidency hoping to work with the Republicans.

      That was his mistake……

    2. How was Obama “divisive”? OK to serve in the military while openly gay? Supporting Pro-Choice? Supporting Marriage Equality? Essentially supporting equal rights for “the other”? Please explain. Use your words.

      1. I might as well ask how is Trump divisive? What has he done or said that favors one group over another? Americans were divided over Obama and they are divided over Trump, that is why I say Trump is as divisive as Obama.

        1. “What has he done or said that favors one group over another?”

          “Mexico isn’t sending their best people….”

          “Sh*thole countries.”

          The Muslim ban.

          “Good people on both sides” (which although it might sound neutral in one way gives credence to Nazis. Actual, torch bearing anti-Semitic epithet chanting Nazis.)

          The gargantuan tax cuts that most people won’t see more than $100 or $200 from compared to the super-rich.

          Child separations for immigrants.

          Shall I continue?

        2. Well, Trump is, right now, denying passports to US citizens on the basis of race and geography. That’s dividing America. He calls the accurate death-toll of the storm in Puerto Rico a lie by Democrats to make him look bad. That’s divisive.

          Obama, on the other hand, repeatedly reached across the isle. Heck, he nearly begged the Republicans to come to the table to discuss Healthcare reform, they refused, then they demanded a televised discussion, then, when he gave them just that, they called it a trap.

          So, actually answer the question. How has Obama been divisive? What has he done *other* than be a Democrat?

          1. He was black. That’s literally being divisive to Republicans, because they don’t understand what divisive means, and aren’t willing to accept their own deep seeded racism.

          2. WingedBeast: Thats a rather one sided view of recent history. You are assuming the |Democrat number on PR is accurate, what if it isn’t? Then who would be seeking to cause trouble and be divisive? As for partisanship in the government, doesn’t that just show how divisive everything is? Trump’s tax cuts also got NO democrat support in the senate, so does that make Trump divisive or the democrats divisive? AS for Obama and the ACA, what makes the ACA divisive are the following: 1) The USA is supposed to have a federal govt, not a central govt. The ACA was a central govt action, dictating to the various states what they would do. 2) The govt does not have the right to compel a purchase of any good or service, 3) the ACA didn’t deliver health care, it delivered captive clients to the insurance industry 4) the legal chicanery involved to pass it–now it’s a tax, now it’s not and 5) The out right and obvious lie about getting more health care for less money. That last one was an insult to anyone’s intelligence. Then there was Obama himself, so nicely personifying the integration of America as a human body with equal contributions from the Negro and Caucasian gene pools. I think nearly everyone had hope he truly was the post racial president. However, he consistently took the side of one of his racial identities and that is what became divisive. To be fair to Obama, the media was the wind to his flame, making things much worse. Remember the Trayvon Martin case? The media at first had the gunman as “white” , then white-hispanic. It certainly became murky, but the initial response from the WH was to assume Trayvon was just an innocent kid gunned down by a white racist. So after a time that part of America that is bot white and non racist got tires of being falsely accused. At least that is my opinion.

            1. First, a side note. Please, in future, include paragraph breaks. It’s just needed for readability.

              But, let’s go over the details.

              1. Basically, you’re saying that, assuming the larger death toll *is* a conspiracy against Trump, Trump assuming it a conspiracy wouldn’t be divisive… that’s a pretty big assumption considering that this was done by an independent organization and Puerto Rico has accepted it as official.

              2. The ACA is divisive because… you disagree with it? Wow, that would have been a good reason for Republicans to come to the table and negotiate earlier, huh?

              3. You’d have to go into “taking his side”. Do you mean when he said that, had he had a son, that son would have looked like Trayvon Martin?

              And, does none of the obligation to be post-racial fall upon conservatives who accused him of being born in another country, who accused him of having falsified college transcript, etc?

              Basically, I see you saying that Obama was divisive for not sharing *your* position on things. Whereas we can call Trump divisive for literally dividing out people as dangerous, less American, etc.

        3. Well, let’s see…he’s divisive in that he believes it’s okay to grab women by the P, by his ignorance of the plight of brown people in Puerto Rico after their island was devastated by a hurricane, he calls violent white supremacist Nazis “fine people,” he surgically targets Hispanic persons (with or without papers) on whose labor this economy depends intensely, he encourages the funneling of money into the pockets of his billionaire cronies and corporations instead of into the pockets of the middle and lower classes, and he expresses himself with the vocabulary and spelling of a struggling fourth grader who also has the temperament of a four year old. That divisive enough for you?

          1. I think its on you to prove your allegations about surgically targeting any particular group or funneling money to his cronies. One way Trump has been divisive is to seek better relations with Russia and North Korea while the war hawks press for more bellicosity because they benefit financially from a constant war economy. But peace and love are still Christian values, aren’t they?

            1. Does the fact of small children in concentration camps not count as targeting a particular group to you? How about a Muslim ban?

              And, he didn’t “seek better relations with Russia”. He sided with Russia against American intelligence organizations.

            2. Barrashee is hilarious. Multiple novel sized posts about him defending frumpelstilskin. Poor guy. Doesn’t even know it’s a fruitless endeavor. ??

        4. People being divided over a thing doesn’t mean the thing is divisive. The people are divisive, choosing to oppose one another. Take some basic responsibility for your own feelings and actions.

          To answer your original question, I defer to Hillary Rodham Clinton, who outlines a detailed answer here:

          https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/09/american-democracy-is-in-crisis/570394/

          You are welcome to examine her words and formulate an intelligent rebuttal if you are at all capable.

        5. So…you can’t actually say how Obama was divisive. You can only deflect when called on having said so.

    3. The neutrality of the early Christians in relation to the political and military affairs of the world is an established fact of history. It was in harmony with Jesus’ refusal to be made a king by the crowds (John 6:15) and with his statement to Pilate that his kingdom was no part of the world. (John 18:36)

      Justin Martyr, of the second century C.E., in his “Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew” (CX): “We who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons, – our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage.” (The Ante-Nicene Father, Vol. I. p. 254)

      This certainly does not signify that Christians just kick back and do nothing at all about mankind’s dilemmas. Quite the opposite, they energetically proclaim the one government which will eliminate mankind’s problems—God’s Kingdom.—Matthew 24:14.

    4. He saluted a ruthless dictator as the leader of the free world, he may have addressed the March for Life, but has no regard for the lives of immigrant children, and his cronies are making a tidy profit warehousing them in tent cities, healthcare for profit can raise the price of life saving medication at whim, and I would certainly wonder about the magical thinking that lets you believe he personally turned the economy around in a year. His tax cuts for the wealthy have given us the biggest deficit, ever, he is opening up public lands, our lands, to mining and drilling, stripping protections for clean air, water, the food supply, sourcing out for profit government functions all in the name of greed. So, just own the fact you voted for Trump as a big feck you to liberals, Hilary, Obama, gay marriage, legal abortion, immigration, big government, etc, whatever pet peave you blame for the downfall of Christian America ™. Hope it was satisfying. Just don’t cloak it in righteousness and say it’s because you are a disciple of Christ, it’s unbecoming. For these are the fruits of the spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. He’s really demonstrating those qualities. And this is the man you think is going to save us? God help us. Sincerely.

      1. I didn’t vote for Trump or Hillary, but if I had voted I would choose Trump over Hillary. As you say, the other option was more of the same from Clintons and progressives. Clintons will say and sell anything for their own benefit, progressives will use force of law to remake the world to suit their imagination. Trump is definitely less abusive. So my theoretical vote is based on self preservation.

        1. And Trump doesn’t use force of law….

          That’s why kids are being detained…..

          Trump will tell you any bs to get your vote.

          1. Please think before spouting. ALL GOVERNMENT USES FORCE OF LAW, thats their explicit function or justification for action. And Trump has been enforcing the same laws regarding separation of minors from people who may or may not be their parents as the past two administrations did. Because the president doesn’t write or create laws, the president merely enforces the laws passed by congress. It’s people who make such blanket and grandiose denunciations of Trump that force more reasonable people to support him, just to push back against inane statements such as yours.

              1. Sorry no, family separation happened in the Garden, when pride (serpant) separated the male and female union.
                A child’s first teachers are the parents. A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand.

                1. Chari, thank you for expressing your dishonesty with efficiency. I can now be sure that any interest in accurate communication is not to be found with you.

            1. You said, “progressives will use force of law to remake the world to suit their imagination”, then refute someone else for pointing out that Trump used force of law when he detained immigrants.
              Doesn’t that reveal that your original statement is inherently biased against progressives? Or do you have some other explanation for tying ‘force of law’ solely to one group? Because BOTH are remaking the world to suit their imagination.

            2. So in other words Trump is no different…..

              And Obama enacted legislation to protect Dreamers something Trump wants to get rid of and use the law to attack children.

    5. Sounds more like you merely focus on what Trump does that matches your agenda, and on what Obama did that does not.

      I’m sorry–but not surprised–to see you try to simply shoo away the points made in the article with an illogical response. Typical.

    6. When he said “you don’t have to give up your plan” and “you can still see the same doctor” and then the health insurance companies pulled the rug out from under him (and I still can’t understand that, he literally saved their market with the ACA), HE APOLOGIZED that his words turned out false and was sorry he said them. I can’t recall Trump ever being sorry for anything.

      Obama wasn’t divisive. You were divisive. Couldn’t stand it that a black man could be elected President *and* do a good job. Considering how hard the GOP opposed him and fought everything he did, he accomplished quite a lot.

      1. To whom do you refer as “you were divisive” ? Then there is this: “People being divided over a thing doesn’t mean the thing is divisive. The people are divisive, choosing to oppose one another” Do the people choose to oppose each other or do they have conflicting values and desire different choices which lead to conflict when people with conflicting values have to share in one choice or the other? The second option seems more reasonable than to think vast swaths of the population are given to opposition for opposition’s sake. As for me personally, I has encouraged when Obama was elected, thinking he would indeed be the post racial president even though I knew I disagreed with his basic understanding of the role of politics. Then he became disappointing in the only thing I had thought he would succeed at.

  31. Almost nailed it, but couldn’t help stumbling over classical liberal logical fallacies with number 5. There is no sensible context in which bowing to a statue and standing for a flag are comparable. Great job on the rest of them though! Especially #1, 2 and 10- so true! Being a conservative in the Republican party is a lonely place these days. Although, with each passing scandal, I have to say I find more and more company.

    1. Four was a bigger problem than 5. 5 is pretty valid, though probably the second weakest, but four is outright wrong as Christianity says the church should do those things. It says nothing about the government doing it. Not that the government couldn’t do it, but there isn’t any mandate about the government doing it in Christianity.

        1. That is a logical falicy. I do think people should go to the hospital and I believe they should also pray for healing. That does not mean I believe hospitals are a scriptural mandate nor do I believe that their existence means we shouldn’t make use of them.

          Personally I do think so government assistance if safety net is fine. That doesn’t mean that one must support something which is not scripturally mandated to be a Christan.

          We may both think someone who only uses faith healing rather than a hospital is an idiot, but it doesn’t mean they aren’t Christian or a bad one. They are just foolishly (in our view anyway) declining to exercise the personal liberty that they are allowed by Christianity to also make use of the tools provided to us.

          1. Actually it is mandated that christians heal the sick and Jesus said nothing about the state providing hospitals.

            So this idea that the government isnt to help poor people is a complete fallacy when it helps the sick.

            The government represents the wishes of the people in a democracy. And the vast majority want to see poor people with some sort of living wage to help them survive. Many of these ARE Christians. (Although some don’t apparently)

            Its either that or they’ll be robbing your house or dying on the street and picking food out of garbage tips.

            It is weird that christians would rather their taxes be spent on bombs than on their fellow humans.

            1. Look at the edited version of my post please. It appears most of this discussion has been taking past each other on a misunderstanding. The context of my original comment was this article which talked about Christian responsibility. The Christian mandate is that Christians provide for the poor and needy. It says nothing of government. My point was that government providing care does not fulfill the religious mandate and that Christians can oppose particular government programs without being in opposition to Christian values.

              It was not my intent or my personal belief that the government should not be involved at all, nor was it my intent to say Christian values dictate the government have no involvement, just that government provision is irrelevant and tangential to the expectation on Christians. Hope that help clears up the confusion.

              1. What misunderstanding is that?
                Its apparent in your reply to Corey that you dont think a nation should care for the poor.

                1. You are going to have to clarify which response you are talking about. I see no response in my message history to anyone named Corey. It’s also a bit presumptuous to simply ignore a clarification and continue to tell someone what they meant when they have consistently clarified multiple times. If you want to argue a straw man rather than engage in a discussion I have better things to do with my time. Every response I’ve made to anyone who said that I was dictating what government should do, I have emphatically indicated that is not what I’m saying.

          2. So, it seems to be your consideration that the US government, the one with a constitution forbidding the government establishing a religion, should be bound by *your* thoughts on what God wanted Christians to do instead of the government?

            1. No, and I’m not sure where you got that from my posts at all. My point is that the government can not and should not be an alternative for Christian’s mandate to care for the poor and needy. I’m just going to assume you have drastically misunderstood me. (Note I also don’t oppose secular help programs, but I think that political opposition to far reaching programs that try to supplant the need for Christian’s to take on these needs is not sign that someone isn’t behaving in a Christian manner.)

              1. If your point is that the government shouldn’t be an alternative for a Christian’s mandate to care for the poor and needy, nothing stops you from doing so. The fact that the government is doing a much better job of that at base than private charities have been able to do ever doesn’t stop you from also caring for the poor.

                If that were really your concern, you wouldn’t be arguing against social welfare programs. When the topic of social welfare programs comes up, you would be supportive to the extent that they are effective and arguing that, as Christians, you’re supposed to still go helping even if, thanks to progressive programs and policies, there are relatively fewer people starving and homeless.

                If, on the other hand, your main concern isn’t for the poor, but for yourself and your version of Christianity owning care for the poor, sure, you can argue that this muscles in on your religion’s domain.

                1. I’m not personally arguing against social welfare programs. I’m arguing that someone can oppose social welfare programs that they don’t think are helpful for whatever reason. Are some people’s objections to them unchristian? Certainly, but that does not mean that someone can not be living consistent with Christian values and also have problems with just about any particular government assistance program.

                  You still don’t seem to quite get what I was trying to say. I’m not saying it must only be Christians or that government shouldn’t do anything. All I am saying is that it is perfectly possible for someone to oppose current government programs in their current form without violating Christian principles to care for the poor and needy.

                  Such programs are a particular solution that is very much in the domain of politics rather than morality. There are multiple ways to skin a cat as the saying goes. Disagreeing on the approach doesn’t mean that people disagree with the values.

            1. I think perhaps you responded to the wrong person. I said that Christian’s wanting to help the poor and needy does not mean they need to support a particular brand of government enforced welfare. Someone else made a completely different statement about whether we should do anything other than what Christianity suggests. The article claims “you aren’t Christian if you don’t support x”. The person I’m responded to said “do you think you can’t do Y if you are a Christian”. I never said you couldn’t be a Christian and support current government programs. That isn’t moving the goal post, the person I responded to moved them.

    2. Not sure what credentials you think you have to make statements like, “Almost nailed it, but couldn’t help stumbling over classical liberal logical fallacies.”

      It sounds really silly and narcissistic. It sounds almost Trumpian except that he’s too stupid to even understand the statement.

      Thanks now. Good luck.

      1. What’s truly narcissistic is to believe that someone needs “credentials” to have an opinion and that somehow your “credentials” permit you to have an opinion but not someone else. THAT is Trumpian. The only credential I am concerned about is critical thought. You have every right to disregard it, but your elitism in doing so is obvious.

    3. State the difference.

      In one case, there’s a demand with known penalties for showing deference to a symbol, humiliating oneself before the symbol and accepting 2nd class citizenship at best. In the other case…?

      1. If the difference between bowing in submission to the state and standing to honor the principles of liberty for all is not obvious to you, then no amount of explanation or debate will bring you to that understanding.

        1. 1. Standing is a kind of submission known as “patriotism”. 2. The flag doesn’t only represent liberty.

            1. Actually, we’re seeing practical demonstration that it is. Listen, if it was really about standing for liberty, there would be the liberty to not do so, to not share your vision of what the flag is. In practice, being that there are such penalties applied for not doing so, yes, standing for the flag can be an act of submission.

              And, symbology doesn’t work that way. You say that it represents liberty to you, but see above regarding the practical demonstration. It means something different to Kapaernick, and saying that he must act as though it only means liberty to him means that you’re saying he should submit.

        2. It’s easy to claim that bowing in submission before an idol is standing in honor to the principles of liberty for all. But, you’re not exactly supportive of the liberty of a person who doesn’t stand, because the country for which the flag stands *isn’t* providing liberty for all.

          1. It’s easy to claim it, but it’s still wrong. It is pretty telling that you take your uninformed assumption about my support of someone’s liberty seriously enough to state publicly. Of course the country for which the flag stands isn’t perfect in it’s execution of it’s ideals, because it is humans trying to work out the execution, but it IS the ideal.

            1. No, you’re stating your own level of support for someone else’s liberty. Including their liberty to view the flag and the act of standing rather than kneeling for the flag in a different way from yourself. That speaks to the value you actually place on liberty.

              1. Your assumptions betray your ability to reason. I am not the one who set the condition of kneeling as dishonoring the flag and the liberty for which it stands. The one’s who are protesting did. I’m simply responding to statements by Kaepernick and other protestors. You assumed that I equate kneeling with dishonoring the flag. I did not, the protesters did.

    1. Actually the Electoral College was set up to give Rural America more power than the populated cities!

    2. Sorry… no she didn’t, and she didn’t even think she did.
      Popular vote is NOT winning an election, it’s merely winning the most populous districts in the most populous regions – the East and West Coast. If you think there is no other part of America, then that’s your problem.
      Note: I say this and I did NOT support Trump, but I’m a pragmatist. HRC didn’t win.

      1. She did win the popular and that should be all that counts. If we can get rid of the Electoral College, it will count. I’m tired of people in rural areas telling people in urban areas what to do. I’ll tell you what you tell poor people in hurricane zones after they’ve had their homes wiped out AGAIN with no help on the horizon: Just move. If you want more influence, move. Rural areas are the actual s**thole places anymore anyway, you don’t take care of one another and you do nothing about your poverty despite sucking up most of the tax dollars that urban areas and blue states are paying. I didn’t make this up. I’ve personally seen it. And then you have the unmitigated gall to say you’re more holy than urban people are. HOW far do you have to drive to find the nearest food pantry? I can jump on a bus and be to my nearest one in fifteen minutes.

        1. So, you would rather the urban areas dictate how rural voters live? How is that any better?
          First of all, you’re barking up the wrong tree if you think I’m uneducated, backward, or conservative for that matter, just because I grew up in rural middle America. I actually voted for Hillary (actually more against Trump, but hey…).
          And where in my statement did I say that I was ‘more holy than urban people’? Look again… you won’t find it. You’re completely off base, and using flawed, overinflated arguments and assumptions is what the other side is supposed to do, not you if you consider yourself an educated liberal, so get your act together.

          As for your s**hole remark, combined with your assumption that ‘you don’t take care of one another and you do nothing about your poverty’ statement, just proves your uneducated or inexperienced biases. You say you’ve personally seen it, I challenge that remark, because I LIVE here and I’m not wearing any rose colored glasses, unlike you. I know the flaws and shortcomings of a red leaning middle America, but it has NOTHING to do with not caring for each other of coming to your neighbors aid.

          I have nothing against folks like you that think the world revolves around coastal urban centers, but maybe you should get out more. I’ve visited and spent time, even lived briefly where you are. At a very human level, people aren’t so different. Maybe it’s time you realized that.

          But to the REAL point here… the electoral college is what makes our society a REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY (or Republic, the two are synonymous). Without it, raw majority wins and a ‘bully mentality’ takes over. If you think things are bad now, just imagine what it would be like to live in a society where your voice doesn’t matter at all. You can’t say that here in America, not without sounding like an idiot. We have always had cycles where one party, or one political leaning, held sway over the direction our country was headed, but like a compass, our society is drawn, sometimes in herky-jerky fashion, toward a middle ground. Few are ever happy or satisfied with the result, but ours is a system that ensures that the bully doesn’t always win, the bullied still has a voice and a measure of justice, and the majority today MIGHT be the minority tomorrow, and both sides STILL get a voice.

  32. Biblical Christianity knows no political party, because the only government that matters is the one that has no parties because Jesus is king. Whatever party we vote for and our status within the Constitution are merely tools to use should they prove useful in advancing God’s kingdom and its policies, and nothing more.

  33. I agree with all but four. Christianity says the church should do those things, it doesn’t say anything about government. And there are a great many good reasons why the government doing it isn’t a great idea (at least in some of the current approaches). The rest are 100 percent spot on though. It makes me sad to see four detract from the unquestionable validity of the rest of it.

    1. Been over this a million times.

      The Church WON’T do it and the only infrastructure to care for millions of the poor, the elderly, the sick is provided by the government.

      1. Then that is a lack of faith in scriptural teaching. The church did do it for quite a long time actually. I guess the good news of having the government try to do it all is that we will crash ourselves and get back to a spot where the church actually has to again. The government has always and will always fail to provide for people in a Christian appropriate manor. They have always failed outright, resulted in a system focused on dependence and propogating itself, or a system that stops valuing the individual and instead sacrifices some for the rest.

        We may not have seen the church pick things up on the scale of current population but that’s a sign the church is unwell, not an argument that we need the government to do it. The government has a far worse track record when it comes to using resources effectively to provide the type of care described by the Bible.

        1. I’m not a Christian. I don’t want the government caring for me in a Christian manner. If you want the church to help people in a Christian manner, tell all your churches to care for their own. I’d be fine with that. I’m not fine with you coming out here to us with food in one hand and a Bible in the other. That is unbelievably cruel.

          Which was pretty much your status quo before the New Deal and actually for a long time afterward when a service was needed that the government didn’t provide. You always made us sorry we needed your help.

          I also don’t recall the Bible outlining anything specific about care for the poor other than providing food and medical care and guess what? The government does both, and it’d be doing them better if you “Christians” didn’t keep cutting its funding.

          1. Read some of my other posts. My point is not whether or not there is a reasonable argument for government provided services. It is whether Christian’s have an inherent RELIGIOUS MANDATE to provide government sponsored care. They do not. The rest of the discussion is politics and I’m honestly more in agreement with you than you think, but I still call out bad arguments when I see them, even if I empathize with what they are getting at.

            1. So, you’re saying that a Christian who has the power to influence whether or not the poor are tended, and the power is over the tool that is government welfare programs, the Christian has no mandate to use that power to help the poor?

          2. ‘The government does both, and it’d be doing them better if you “Christians” didn’t keep cutting its funding.’

            hoofkinrah!

        2. 1. “Christian appropriate” is not and cannot be the important thing to the US government. It has to be more concerned with feeding people than making sure said people become Christians.

          2. “Christian appropriate” outside of “make sure to proselytize to those you’re (allegedly) helping” doesn’t have any definition, at all.

          3. The reason we started the New Deal, including welfare programs, was because the church did not and could not do it. They didn’t have the infrastructure.

          4. The type of care described in the Bible includes, in the Old Testament, the government enforcing laws and programs to care for the poor.

          1. I’ll just respond point by point as that’s probably easier.

            1) see my other response, I agree with you whole heartedly on this one.
            2)the definition is to provide the aid. It is a call for the church and Christian’s to meet the need, not abdicate it to someone else.
            3)They did not do it, it doesn’t mean they could not do it. The church isn’t perfect either, but that doesn’t mean that Christians can simply abdicate their responsibility. I’m also not opposing all government programs. If there aren’t enough resources to go around, economic stimulus is something I think the government can and should do in order to get enough resources back in the system.
            4)The old testament is by and large an object lesson in the fact that human institutions can’t fix things. They had the entire deck stacked, even to the point of harming others to stack it, but yet still couldn’t do it. That’s pretty much the entire point of the old testament and the old covenant. It was never intended as a means of salvation, but a means of showing we need salvation. Note, this does also mean that I don’t think the church will ever fully address societal needs in this life, nor do I think government will.

            We are talking about responsibility since that determines where someone should put their effort. From a Christian perspective, no amount of government intervention will ever abdicate our responsibility, so it becomes a question of effectiveness of government programs in helping people and there is reasonable room for debate and refinement. My point is not to argue that the government can’t be helpful, but rather that having objections to government programs that one believes are flawed is not inherently unchristian. That’s in to political rather than religious territory, and as you said, those two are separate things.

            1. I’m not willing to wait until the church gets its act together to give up on government aid. I’m not willing to give up on it even after the church gets its act together which you and I know will never happen anyway. I want options that are not the church. You have no right to take everything over and demand that we follow your religious law. Take care of your own. That would actually be a help to government resources because the government doesn’t automatically help, you have to ask them and if the church TOOK CARE OF ITS OWN, not even everyone else, those cared-for people wouldn’t have to apply for aid.

            2. 1. You’ll have to give a better definition than you do.

              2. If the definition is to just provide the aid, historically speaking, government *has* done that better than the church.

              3. Ah, here’s where we’re getting into the rub. You think that this is an alternative to Christians helping people. No, it’s helping people. The fact that you think that should be owned by Christians doesn’t mean it doesn’t actually help people.

              4. That’s your particular reading of the Old Testament.

              And, no, we’re not talking about responsibility. We’re talking about getting people fed, housed, educated, etc. That’s what we’re talking about. The fact of the matter is that, prior to the New Deal, churches weren’t doing that (whether you argue it was about capacity or will is secondary, they weren’t). When welfare was pulled back, churches did not take up the full slack. Therefore, using the tool of government towards that end is the most effective means.

              1. We are talking about responsibility in the context of the original post. We are talking about whether a Christian can oppose unlimited build out of government sponsored welfare, and ultimately if a Christian can be anything other than a fully bought in, die hard socialist. The Christian mandate is to help the poor and needy. It is not to make the government do it. Having the government do it is not inconsistent with Christian principles either (and personally I think some forms of government help are a good thing). However, to say that someone is not behaving in a Christian manner because they disagree with government help programs is not evidence that they are not actually a Christian. That is the beginning and end of my original point. I’m not trying to get in to a debate on what is or isn’t good for government to do as that is an entirely different and much more complex discussion.

            3. It’s taken 2000 years for the church to get its shit together and nothing looks like improving soon.

              In fact it’s getting worse.

              How much longer do you want?

              How many people have to die waiting for churches to become hospitals?

              Btw what has the church done about the disabled?

              SFA….

        3. Dont be ridiculous.

          The government in a democracy represents the will of the people.

          And that includes many many people including Christians who want to see the poor helped so they arent living on the street and offering their kids up to prostitution. Go to some parts of the world and see how countries with no or limited welfare are. Children picking food out of rubbish tips. Children being forced to become prostitutes. And the people who vote also want the sick to get access to the best treatment.

          The church has neither the infrastructure, finance, capacity nor will to support millions of the poor, the sick, the elderly and veterans.

          The government does a far better job than churches do. Perfect – of course not. But far better than churches did. Otherwise their would be no need for government services in the first place. And it represents a wider group than just christians even if some christians are too stingy to care for their fellow human.

          You are living in a libertarian fantasy.

          I’m wondering at what stage did Jesus blame the poor for being lazy bastards.

  34. Great listing here as cataloged all together for quick referral, as I know from first-hand experience the baseless reasons the Christian right has given in justifying their Trump vote, in which includes these from this article…but might I add just a couple more…

    Hillary Clinton “lies too much”: When asked to give a pertinent Hillary lie, without bringing up the Republican conspiracies against her, like Vince Foster, Ben Benghazi or Uranium One, they cannot come up with one concrete lie of hers and yet they voted for a known liar that has already tallied up over 5,000 lies since his less than two years time in office…

    Hillary Clinton “can’t be trusted.” Yeah right; a woman who has dedicated her whole life to children causes ever since she was 17, even is the originator of CHIPS which is way above the trust level of a narcissistic misogynist that was accused by Katie Johnson in raping her when she was only 13-yrs-old. With a witness she filed a lawsuit, but had to drop it during the 2016 campaign since the FBI could not guarantee her safety due to all the death threats she was receiving.

      1. Well, it looks like we got a crybaby MacDouglass on our hands here that can’t give any substantive issue, so spews out nonsense that any third grader would do.

        So, please inform us all little one wearing the big britches…from her actions and words, why can’t Hillary followers not be trusted, but you Trumpeteers can be…

  35. We were very lucky God stopped at 10 Commandments, because the 11th might have been “Thou Shall not be a Hypocrite”. The historical facts of Christ are, he was a Socialist, the first Community the disciples set up after the Crucifixion was called The Way, they pooled their money together, and distributed it by need not by how it was earned. He was a Pacifist, when John the Baptist was capture he never created an army to rescue him, likewise the Jew were expecting a Messiah that would create a great army who would lead them to victory. just the opposite of what Christ was. And we all know Christ quote “He who lives by the sword will die by the sword”. But Christ was also the biggest Liberal to change the world. He taught something NEW, he ask us to THINK, all of a sudden the poor where elevated above the rich,the cast struct the rich and powerful controlled was threaten. What you had on earth was no longer a marker of GOD favor for you, those liberal teachings made Christ a threat and cost him his life. What should be understood is that even though there is not an 11th Commandment, Christ did you the word Hypocrite 31 times, that should cause some pause.

    1. Before the whining there was scientific evidence that the Nazarene actually was more a guerrilla fighter,and noble of a competing bloodline (so all the poor arise was bullshit for the masses anyway). I witnessed professors being threatened for discovering facts at university, and I doubt anyone but “God” really knows it all. How many Israeli, fake or real, will downvote this, if I write ‘I love Christmas’? 😉

    2. While your statements sound good – you do realize that you are bringing Jesus into today’s language and culture. It might be better to state “Jesus lived and taught counter to the culture of the day.” rather than to label Him in today’s vernacular.
      Additionally, NOTHING Jesus did “cost Him His life.” Jesus laid His life down as a sacrifice for many so that through His shed blood we could experience spiritual life. Jesus did not come to change the culture, to validate socialism, to redistribute wealth or to command us to be pacifists. Jesus came so that we could have life in Him.
      Thank you for your thoughts.

      1. The Synoptic Gospels all agree that the leaders of the Temple began seriously conspiring to have Jesus killed after the cleansing of the Temple. It was at that point that he went from merely criticizing the system to actually taking action against it. And, then as now, when the people go from talking to acting, the powers that be are prompted to counteract the resistance.

        The natural tendency is to respond “that was different!” Consider though that the money changers were performing a service that was not only legally permitted, but necessary given the working of the Temple and the context in which it operated. By turning over their tables, Jesus was committing acts which would today, get him arrested for vandalism, assault and possibly assault battery.

      2. Actually, much of what Jesus taught is countercultural today as well, just perhaps in a different way.

        1. That is absolutely true! That was the point I was attempting to make. Apparently, I was not clear. Thanks, Tim.

  36. “Sadly, my old tribe seems to collectively struggle to realize they’ve done exactly what they spent the entire Left Behind series warning me not to do: they have fallen in line behind a worldly leader who arose to power during a time of “wars and rumors of wars,” who did so by falsely pretending to be a Christian, but who would ultimately lead them to follow an entirely new religion.”

    This. This is the great irony; that the very people who are supposed to know better are doing exactly what they warned me about.
    It turns out that the people who have warned us and continue to warn us about “the antichrist” and “one world government” are actually the problem, not the EU or the UN or anything else they’ve tried to point their fingers at over the years; it’s THEM.

    1. Exact same thing could be said of the Obama whorshipers; their messiah. Remember he said the oceans would quit rising and he was the one you were waiting for… talk about a doped is egomaniac.

      1. Remember he said the oceans would quit rising and he was the one you were waiting for.

        – Source please or admit that you are lying

      2. I don’t remember him saying anything like that. And the example of Obama in general is less endemic to the kind of crap that you find in “Christianity” than Trump is.

      3. You have not a single shred of truth; or any evidence of your false accusations. You didn’t even provide a credible source to prove you claim that President Obama ever said or did any of the things you vile TЯ☭itor-TЯ卐mp’s MAGAts claim.

        Furthermore TOAD … white-supremacist, neo-nazi, or conspiracy-theory web sites don’t count as credible sources.

  37. Yep.

    I was raised by evangelical Christians, and also, since I’m intelligent, paid attention, and understood the Bible I was reading, was astounded as I grew up to discover how much hypocrisy was rampant among Christians.

    This didn’t begin with Trumpolini, of course. Look back to the Teaparty, or the Christian Right in the 80’s. The same nonsense, irrational contradictions, utter inability, apparently, to understand their own religion.

    Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. So simple. Everything would function great. We wouldn’t even need to have all these political arguments. But noooooooooooo instead we have a Christianity in this country which is just the imperial cult it was designed to be by Constantine.

    Is there a Jesus in there somewhere? I can’t find him.

  38. mr. corey, i am a born-again christian, and i understand your frustration with those believers who uncritically accept the bad with the good from mr. trump. that is no reason, however, to castigate all who voted for mr. trump as idiots; furthermore, striking out is hardly the well-considered response of a christian. rather than striking back, i choose to explain my motives for supporting mr. trump to U. i hope that U understand that i am upset with U, but that i lift U up in prayer nonetheless, because U, too, are a child of God. please don’t take my response as a rock thrown at U (even though i suspect that U will). i also realize that this is just one more rock in a heap of 1500 other rocks, but here goes anyway:

    10 – i spent 8 years criticizing mr. obama, and i have spent the years since criticizing mr. trump. please keep in mind that not everybody voted for him in the republican primaries, and not everybody who didn’t vote for ms. clinton voted for mr. trump in the general election. i *did* vote for mr. trump in the general election, but i would have voted for a tree stump if i thought that it would prevent ms. clinton from becoming president; mine was a vote *against* ms. clinton. ms. clinton took kickbacks when she and her husband were in the governor’s mansion in AR (she “earned” $100 000 on the futures market in about 8 weeks with no previous experience; that market is a zero-sum game, with loser money going to winners), treated classified data as if it were personal property, deleted “personal” data mixed with classified data without the oversight or approval of the state department or other classifying agencies (had i done that when i had a secret clearance, termination would have been immediate, and federal charges might have been lodged against me), and on and on. worst of all, she is an alinskyite leftist. saul alinsky devoted an entire chapter of his book “rules for radicals” to arguing that the end justifies the means, which casts ms. clinton’s actions into doubt all by itself. mr. trump is egotistical, non-christian (“i have nothing to be forgiven for”), inarticulate, and uneducated about the world at large (so he hires people that *do* understand it), but his election has resulted in an appointment to the supreme court of a judge who believes in following the law and constitution as written, not as stretched by a woman who had her spouse try to meet secretly with the attorney general when she was under investigation (which should have resulted in the firing of ms. lynch). apparently, caesar’s wife (or husband, in her case) does not need to be beyond even the appearance of corruption; he only needs to have no evidence against him. that same standard would no doubt have followed her into office.

    9 – Jesus said that we are to take the homeless in and care for them, but He did not say that we should not defend our families and friends when the “immigrant” rapes one’s wife and daughter, and murders one’s son. almost all immigrants to this nation have made every effort to blend in. we have a history of people coming here from all backgrounds and all nations, and succeeding in earning a living and raising a family. present circumstances are only rarely a predictor of how the immigrant will turn out. that said, some who want in are dangerous; they are wolves in sheep’s clothing. ms-13 comes to mind, but i believe that most of their members are recruited in center cities among citizens in poor living condistions. thus, i would direct U to the scriptures of the religion of pieces, islam. this vile cult teaches that muslims are the best people (quran 3:110), and that non-muslims are the worst of creatures (quran 8:55). consequently, it is not only OK, it is *expected* of pious muslims to lie to non-believers, steal from them, rape their women (and little girls), and kill them; the ulema has taught this for centuries, and does so at al-azhar university in cairo, the foremost center of islamic learning in the sunni world since the end of the 13th century or thereabouts, today. *everybody* who is non-muslim is a good candidate for entry into the u.s.; almost *no* muslims are, unless they are ahmadis or other rare sects (rare because they are murdered when found in muslim-majority nations). of course, this is me writing on the internet, and U don’t know me from adam, so U would be an idiot to just take my word for it. learn about abrogation, the kutub alsittah, the sira, the ulema, and the history of islam for yourself. if U just assume that i’m making up slander because i hate brown people, U are mistaken; the *ONLY* sources for the early history of islam are islamic scriptures, and that’s where i got this stuff. in order to prove me wrong, look for yourself; either that, or be intellectually lazy instead. is not the truth the best argument?

    8 – my current church doesn’t do anything that is patriotic as such, but that doesn’t preclude such things. i was once a member of a church that sponsored a troop of boy scouts, and as part of the scouts’ activities, they would start off a service once a year, with the u.s. and christian flags leading a procession down the aisle, followed by everybody reciting the pledge of allegiance, followed by a prayer for the troop. everybody there considered it as the church body helping guide boys into adulthood by sponsoring the troop, and the opening ceremony was part of the scout troop’s activity, not part of the worship. he who worships his country is a fool, as is he who does whatever his “country” wants; stephen decatur was *wrong” to say, “my country, right or wrong,” because a commie in the ussr could have said that, as could a nazi in WWII germany, or a child soldier in pol pot’s cambodia. thank U for painting me with that smear, BTW.

    7 – did i say that mr. trump is inarticulate? if not, this is me saying that he is a loose cannon. bombing the s**t out of somebody might be appropriate in a military or battle context, but is not usually so in a political context, unless somebody has perpetrated an act of war against the nation. furthermore, inciting violence against a fellow citizen is reprehensible (but U didn’t ask me, U just painted me. thanks). OTOH, mr. trump says and does a lot of outrageous and offensive things, things that no prior republican president or presidential candidate every came close to doing; it keeps his enemies stirred up, and often angers them … and sometimes, in their frustration with and rage against him, they slip up and accidentally expose their poisonous leftist cores to the public (conveniently remaining under- and un-reported by the legacy media). given that past republican presidents (and most republican congresscritters) have done little to distinguish themselves from ever more left-turning democrats, leading to democrat-controlled governments like mr. obama’s that turned sharply left and republican governments like both mr. bush’s that slightly slowed – but never came close to halting – the turn to the left, perhaps continuously banging on the hornet’s nest of the leftish democrats is not so stupid after all. we have *not* settled down to the quiet, steady turn to a dictatorship of the left that has characterized every administration since mr. reagan’s, and instead are in the midst of a partisan battle that has continued from the campaign until now, which has led to the exposure of the vile nature of much of the nation’s “leadership,” and that light of day is a Good Thing. finally, i would ask U to clarify your meaning a bit. surely U did not mean that mr. roosevelt’s response to the attack on pearl harbor should have been a simple chastisement of the japanese government?

    6 – i don’t remember saying this one. i guess U weren’t there when i said that mr. trump saying “i have nothing to be forgiven for” was a stupid thing to say proving that he was *not* a christian, so i’ll let it go. as i noted above, i voted for mr. trump because he was not ms. clinton. in this nation, in case U haven’t noticed, one really has only 2 choices in a presidential election. yes, there are always other candidates (*lots* of them in larger cities), but for the past 160 years or so, there have only really been 2 parties, with the occasional spoiler taking votes away from one party or the other. my choice, as i saw it, was to use my vote in the best way possible to stop a hard-core leftist with a penchant for corruption from becoming president. i’m sorry if U disagree, but i would do it again given the same circumstances. and i don’t think that trying to protect my family and my community makes me an evil person. i forgive U for thinking ill of me.

    5 – i never said that anything should be done to entertainers (that’s what sports stars are) for not standing during the national anthem, nor do i think that they are traitors. i do, however, think that they are bad businessmen. as an engineer, i sell my services to members of the public, and i do *not* discuss politics with my customers unless they become personal friends. friends understand that they don’t agree on everything, and still remain friends with one another even when they disagree on a thing about which they have passionate feelings. when one does not know the customer, however, one does everything one can to make him happy, and nothing to antagonize him. outside the business context, different rules apply, although a good businessman – *and* a good christian, BTW – will still does his level best not to draw adverse attention to himself. that said, circumstances sometimes become so dire that one must take actions without regard to what others may think; times of war and revolution come to mind (france, in 1940 and 1789, respectively). i do not believe that circumstances are so bad – yet – that we must take to arms, or even to be uncivil with those with whom we disagree. when a football player takes a political stance *while working with customers*, he is dividing his customers into those who will buy his product and those who will not. of course, these men are all fabulously wealthy (or at the very least, *very* well paid), so that may not matter to them; good for them. they have, however, offended me, because as americans, we should all agree that freedom is good, and that this nation treats its citizens very well. throughout history, almost all governments have treated their citizens abysmally; ours is a rare exception. the government is run by people, though, and people, being imperfect, don’t even carry out the laws perfectly, even when they might agree with them. should we then decide that freedom doesn’t work? the singing/playing of the anthem is one time when we can – and should – agree that our nation *aspires* to come ever closer to perfect application of the law, and honor that aspiration. or we can just attack one another physically on sight. which way do U think civilization will survive?

    4 – well, i need not expend as many words on this one, because Jesus said to render unto caesar what is caesar’s, and unto God what is His. He indeed also said to care for the poor, welcome the stranger, and give food to the hungry, but He didn’t say to use caesar’s things to do so. He meant for *US* to use *OUR* things to carry out His will. when “christians” sit back and wait for the government to take care of things, they are not following His will. goodness and charity cannot be coerced, but they *MUST* be present in christians. furthermore, *any* government run by *any* society will function better if its citizens take care of one another rather than using the power of the state to try to do so. BTW, socialism sounds very noble – from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs – but the society quickly devolves into one lazy guy figuring out that he doesn’t have to do very much, and everybody else figuring out that they’ll get stuck with all the work if they keep working hard, and deciding to do no more than the lazy guy. when the State owns everything, nobody takes care of anything, because the State will replace “it” whenever it is damaged; no need to be careful with “it” (fill in the blank for “it”). finally, central planning throws information from the consumer away, leading to stores filled with unwanted merchandise, and dire shortages of other merchandise. check out information theory and feedback sometime.

    3 – everybody living around the mediterranean has similar skin coloring, although berbers tend to be somewhat darker (and consequently have less skin cancer), so it is not very likely that the roman soldiers who crucified Jesus looked all that much different from Him. there is, of course, a chance that they might have been mercenaries from northern europe, but large numbers of germans and other northern europeans didn’t start serving as roman mercenaries until 150 years or so after His death and resurrection. my guess is that all those folks, even the Lord, were brown people, so i don’t think racism had much to do with the crucifixion. as to allowing people in, i think i have made myself clear above, but i would like to add that as citizens of a republic, we should strive to obey the law, and prevent those who deliberately *break* the law from becoming citizens. if U don’t like the law (and i *don’t*, having hated the current situation since the 1980s, when democrat politicians LIED and said that after 3 000 000 illegal aliens were granted amnesty, the law would be fixed), change it, so that respect for the law – rather than specific politicians – is maintained. have U tried to get your congresscritters to change the law? i have.

    2 – mr. obama was elected by a people who felt a collective guilt for bad treatement of black people (an understatement if ever there was one) more than they felt fear of his politics, which are alinskyite leftist. a people being fooled is not an evil thing in and of itself, but voting for a candidate because of a personal characteristic rather than because of his beliefs is foolish. i did not vote for mr. obama because i *did* fear his politics, but i must say that when the teleprompter was in place, he was at least as good a speaker as mr. reagan, who was also very good with a teleprompter. also like mr. reagan, mr. obama sincerely believed much of what he said in the election – in all 57 states (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpGH02DtIws) – but unlike mr. reagan, he hid what his real beliefs were. do U really think that rev. wright was a christian? the Lord will judge in the end, but it sure didn’t sound like rev. mr. wright was preaching the Good News to me. since mr. obama attended that “church” for 25 years, i suspect that his beliefs are similar. what was that about mr. trump’s christianity?

    1 – i spent the late 1990s saying that mr. clinton perjured himself, and that the democratic party cared more about retaining power than they did about breaking the law. yes, it was a dirty-trick sex and perjury trap that the republicans sprang to remove the president, but had the democrats actually respected the law, they would have voted to impeach because of his perjury; instead, they voted to keep power. lying under oath is a crime at other times, but no longer for the president. thank U, mr. clinton. i would also like to point out (sighs) once again that i voted for mr. trump because he was *not* ms. clinton, not because i thought he was a paragon of virtue. he is a serial womanizer, a liar, a poor-little-rich-boy who made his money from the paltry $500 million his daddy gave him to get started … in short, he is about an unlikeable and unworthy of respect as a president can get without being a criminal (the russia b.s. hasn’t been proved yet, and i doubt that it will be), but the bottom line is that – wait for it – HE IS *N*O*T* MS. CLINTON. i didn’t choose him; circumstances did.

    0 – let’s stop shouting, and start talking. fora like this is a good place to start, because one writes his opinion, and readers have to finish the article if they want to make a coherent reply. if there’s one thing i can’t stand, it’s the TV shows where talking heads interrupt and shout at one another; i’ve stopped watching that drivel. i would respectfully like to propose that we make greater efforts not to call one another names, make generalizations about one another, and make ad hominem attacks on each other. as a fellow follower of the Way, i wish U His love and guidance.

    1. Your response is perfect. Yes – this article works hard to create a strawman Trump supporter to beat up on.

    2. B.A. this is in response to your comments to me that apparently have been since deleted, questioning me about my views on Franklin Graham, the Far Right, and your libertarian views. Your questions showed up in my email, but I cannot find them here. They may have been flagged as “spam.” Happens all the time to me. What follows is my response.
      There is nothing wrong with Samaritan’s Purse. Franklin founded it but it runs on it’s own. Franklin tends towards bigotry and outright hatred. Let’s call it the outcome of his Southern Christian heritage. He was part and parcel of the whole “Obama is a Muslim” smear campaign. His unrelenting attacks on the gay community and coziness with Trump, the baby Christian with baby hands is nauseating and discredits his Christianity. Along with Dobson and others his simplistic version of abortion as murder and his likening of Chelsea Clinton’s views on abortion as similar to Hitler’s views on the final solution of the Jews is disgusting and a cheap shot.

      His war mongering support of the invasion of Iraq in 2003, his general confusion and intermingling of nationalism with Christianity. His glowing praise for Donald Trump and the claim that “God had showed up,” in the election of the most misogynistic, lying president we’ve ever had, bar non, is disgusting. The NAACP implored him to “refrain from using Christianity as a weapon of political division.”

      In other words, he is an abrasive and divisive Christian who wishes to force feed his toxic brand of Christianity on everyone. This includes “putting God back in politics,” as he put it. He, like Cruz and others envision a Christian Sharia law in a sort of wacko romanticized rewrite of the history of Christianity in the US.

      And I didn’t miss the boat by a few decades. I am 67, born into the evangelical faith, born again age six, “baptized in the Spirit,” age 16. Mission trips, youth camps, choir, Bible school, Fuller Seminary…evangelical: walked the walk, talked the talk. Seen it all.

      “Being human means xenophobia.” Couldn’t disagree more. No one is born racist. Watch infants of different race play together. If they tussle with each other over a toy they don’t do so because they are racist. No, we are born selfish. No one is born racist or xenophobic.

      Speaking of selfish let’s talk about libertarian tendencies. I find it very disturbing that so many of my evangelical acquaintances and family are libertarian. This is not an outgrowth of Christianity and is counter to Jesus’ teachings and the example of the disciples. I understand WHY people find libertarian views appealing, but it needs to be viewed as a entirely secular worldview with no relationship to Christ’s teaching at all. It is an outgrowth of the individualist American spirit that tends towards selfishness and “me first.”

      One of the most obvious examples of the evangelical libertarian impulse is its historical use of state’s rights to block social reform. It was used for years in the Jim Crow South and has been resurrected as a means to block equality for interracial marriage, same sex marriage, voting rights, and more things than I can fit here. Nor is the libertarian impulse an equal opportunity worldview. Christian libertarians say to Big Government, “butt out, leave me alone…but as far as Muslims, women, people of color, gays, immigrants, refugees, well, the government needs to police them and control them. Freedom goes only one way, theirs.

      The “Hard Right” is basically an outgrowth of the age old white European superiority complex that immigrated here to the US with the first white settlers. The “I am better than you, and you are lesser than me, therefore God has given me the right to subjugate you and rule over you” complex. The reason it has come so much to the forefront recently, usually referred to as White Nationalism, is because of the fact that whites will be a minority in the coming decades. It scares the bejesus out of people.

      I’ve gone on long enough. Hope this clarifies a few things.

      1. Kirk, thank U for responding to me. i recall making a comment about “missing the boat by a few decades,” but i don’t remember the context, and i’m pretty sure it wasn’t a comment on this particular article. i, too, have seen responses to my comments which i have subsequently been unable to find on line, and i suspect in those cases that the original thread got deleted by the original poster … but i’m not sure. in any case, i have not yet knowingly deleted any comments (there should be a few thousand out there by now). :-/

        in any case, when i go back and read my posts, i almost always wish that i had worded them a little differently. i *want* to be clear, but often am not; i apologize for that. in particular, i am a conservative with libertarian leanings, by which i mean that i prefer for the State to stay out of people’s business as much as possible. the main reason i am *not* a libertarian is that they seem to be just this side of anarchism, and sometimes at one with it. as has often been noted, government would not be needed were we perfect, but we are not; thus, if we have no government, or too minimal a government, we will end up with a government run by thugs. the government must be able to defend itself from external threats to its existence, and also to internal threats to it. it must also prevent disagreements from escalating into physical attacks, and provide recourse in the courts to resolve conflicts when necessary.

        i could go on and on (and usually do), as can be seen by the lenght of the comment to which U responded here on patheos dot com (although if U did it by email, i guess U didn’t see it), but i, too, have said enough. thank U again for clarifying your position. as i said in my comment above:
        i would respectfully like to propose that we make greater efforts
        not
        to call one another names, make generalizations about one
        another, and
        make ad hominem attacks on each other. as a fellow
        follower of the Way,
        i wish U His love and guidance.

        1. Btw seeing as how you like to throw the term fascist and nazi around at leftists learn some history

          Your mate Orban in hungary who you admire so much is trying to resurrect Miklos Horthy’s reputation. You know – the bloke who formed an Alliance with the Nazis….And who has bestowed medals on members of the Far Right Arrow Cross Party who were responsible for rounding up Hungarian Jews.

          Moron!

        2. “i would respectfully like to propose that we make greater efforts
          not
          to call one another names, make generalizations about one
          another, and
          make ad hominem attacks on each other.”

          Coming from a guy who is actually doing that.

          Who from his own posts

          Labels leftists as liars and irrational
          “they are liars *because* they are leftist, as conservatroll notes.”

          http://disq.us/p/1vrdzri

          Labels ALL Muslims as terrorists

          Says the Left is indoctrinating students into anti-semitism

          Applauds the work of the Far Right in Hungary and hopes Trump can emulate Viktor Orban whose running the country like a dictator

          Labels the UK, UKstan

          How about this corker

          “”and lilke the nazis they are, the left has made it illegal to homeschool. the bottom line is that children belong the the State, and they *will* be removed from parents if they don’t toe the line. of course, that’s for *citizens* of deutschland, not their masters, the muslims; they can do anything they want with either their own children (child marriage, FGM, etc.) or with the State’s children (citizens don’t have children, of course).

          bunch of g.d. nazis.”

          http://disq.us/p/1vivz9a

          Mate you’re a fricking hypocrite, and a liar.

        1. One reason I refuse to support it. I have problems with “charitable” organizations that are a thin covering for evangelism. If getting people “saved” is the primary motivation for acts of charity, then one is no better than the Amway salesperson who uses church as a cover for his sales activities. They’re just selling tickets to heaven rather than soap.

    3. “the *ONLY* sources for the early history of islam are islamic scriptures, and that’s where i got this stuff. in order to prove me wrong, look for yourself; either that, or be intellectually lazy instead. is not the truth the best argument?”

      No, you didn’t. You got it off the internet.

      And trump gave $110 billion in weapons to the most extremist Muslim country on Earth….

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d6347ed7085c13e2ff3bcc68a18f2107753cf5b75f42fdf9f7a10bb06e652680.jpg

      Yeah let’s start talking…

      Like at what stage did you sell yourself out?

      Btw Jeremiah Wright is a pastor of 8000. In what world is he not a Christian?

      Because he criticised the United States for its racism and policies in other countries which we’re seeing now as well. Bin Laden himself said that his attack was because of US policies in the Middle East. I guess that leaves King out as well..

      I suppose he’s not a true Christian like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson who blamed 9/11 on feminists, liberals, gays and abortion….and no one batted an eyelid.

      But good to know you don’t make generalisations about others.

      1. And don’t forget, it was the Saudi’s who attacked us on 9/11. Seventeen of the hijackers were Saudi citizens, as was Osama Bin Laden.

    4. I agree with o. People who call other people names show their level of maturity and lack of knowledge. However, when I am called a name I often return the favor. It’s a language even they understand.

  39. I would really like to see this list alternately written in a style friendlier to those who voted in the big mistake, so they might read the whole list without being too offended to consider changing their minds. Perhaps that’s wishful thinking on my part.

  40. I agree with much of this but somehow this gets confused with what Trump did in the past to what he does now.

    Also unless laws breach the law of God then we obey the law. I see none of this in the Trump administration law or actions.

    With regards to illegal immigration , separating children from families is wrong but they are still illegal and broke the law and should all be sent home and they can come to the USA legally.

    1. Lol because the Trump of the past is no different to the Trump of now. His paying off a porn star was during the 2016 campaign.

      As for God’s laws such as “If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.”, I’m wondering how many gay people have you killed?

      As for immigration…….

      Deut 10:18 “He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the foreigner residing among you, giving them food and clothing. 19 And you are to love those who are foreigners, for you yourselves were foreigners in Egypt.”

      Deut 27:19 “Cursed is anyone who withholds justice from the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow.” Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”

      Exodus 23:9 “Do not oppress a foreigner; you yourselves know how it feels to be foreigners, because you were foreigners in Egypt.”

      Ezekiel 22:7 “In you they have treated father and mother with contempt; in you they have oppressed the foreigner and mistreated the fatherless and the widow.”

      Genesis 12:1 “The LORD had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.”

      Leviticus 25:35 “If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and are unable to support themselves among you, help them as you would a foreigner and stranger, so they can continue to live among you.”

      Zechariah 7:9 “This is what the LORD Almighty said: ‘Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another. 10 Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless, the foreigner or the poor. Do not plot evil against each other.’

      Psalm 146: 9 The LORD watches over the foreigner and sustains the fatherless and the widow, but he frustrates the ways of the wicked.

      Malachi 3:5 “So I will come to put you on trial. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive the foreigners among you of justice, but do not fear me,” says the LORD Almighty.

      Jeremiah 7:5-7 “If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly, 6 if you do not oppress the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm, 7 then I will let you live in this place, in the land I gave your ancestors for ever and ever.”

      Philippians 3:20 “But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,”

      Seems God’s a lefty liberal on immigration and curses those who oppresses foreigners. ie people like yourself and your false messiah trump.

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6950804d7d49c9a09332e25f14764d3132f13471b5b2024564b83731c25f52bc.jpg

      1. We have no evidence of his behaviours now. I rather assume someone is innocent until proven guilty.

        I do not agree with the wall but Trumps administration is correct to uphold legal migration and I disagree with the separating families thing.

        1. We certainly do have evidence of him silencing porn stars DURING the 2016 election.

          And the Bible is clear on welcoming foreigners and curses those who dont.

          As usual the hypocrisy of you people is mindboggling.

            1. Lol….well according to the bible you are cursed….or do you think they had to have the correct visa and skin colour?

              The bible says far more on welcoming foreigners than on gay sex.

              But you ignore that.

    2. Escaping slaves broke the law too. MLK broke the law. Susan B. Anthony did. Gandhi did. The law is not a gauge of morality. Often it’s just the opposite.

        1. Btw the Bible says you are cursed because of your treatment of foreigners.

          So God gives a big “F*** you” to you as well.

  41. The Democrats are out of control, but there is hope. Thanks to the person who mentioned #WalkAway: A few gems from former Democrats.

    Thread: I decided to #WalkAway as a former Obama supporter after realizing how dangerous the Democratic Party is. Open borders. High taxes. Socialism. Sucking up to Islamic terrorists. Taking away our guns. The LLM (Lying Liberal Media), Sanctuary cities. GENDER PRONOUNS…
    I was a Democratic activist for 15 years, but the 2016 election opened my eyes. I don’t recognize the party anymore. It is corrupt and hostile to independent thinkers; its leaders are divisive and hypocritical. It advances no ideas or serious policy, just hostility. #WalkAway
    A Democrat would give the shirt off my back and the money in my pocket to an illegal immigrant – which is one of the MANY reasons why I chose to #WalkAway
    Voted for Bill Clinton, Al Gore, John Kerry, and Obama. My eyes were opened once I found out the real frauds that the Democrat party had become. None of them ever delivered any promise ever made. Until Trump came along … the rest is history. #WalkAway #MAGA2020

    1. Lol and you had a religious experience to follow trump.

      Many did the same with hitler.

      Btw why do you hate immigrants given that you are one?

    2. Seriously though, by the way that you capitalise ‘gender pronouns’ its like you think trans people are the very worst of the list…
      I mean, what the hell do you think we’re going to do to you?

            1. And how do you know they are genuine?

              Or do you not care because it supports what you want to believe?

                  1. Thanks Matthew. Excellent reference. This young progressive socialist defeated the number 4 democrat, Crowley. This is a monumental problem for the Democrats. Let’s see them explain this result.

                    1. Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, and Bill de Blasio are the trend setters for the Democratic party I think. Hillary Clinton had way too much baggage and was too deep in the establishment. If Bernie had run against Trump, I think Trump would have lost the election, Bob — but that´s just my personal opinion. The Democratic party would be wise to learn from the defeat of Hillary Clinton. It is only a progressive agenda that will save the Democratic party I think. That said, I´m far away from American politics these days, but just as an observer it seems American general elections are normally too close to call — regardless of one´s party affliation.

                      Bob … honestly though … it would be interesting to know a little bit about what interests you besides the Bible and conservative American politics. I´m sure there is a side to you that doesn´t want to argue all the time about these things … right? 🙂 🙂 Breaking online bread together could be a good thing 🙂

                    2. Thanks Matthew. Every once in a while I hear from someone who is opinionated but not confrontational.
                      When I am not working or researching or reading I respond to some of Ben’s blogs. This one was unusually active.
                      Although I appreciate the invitation I do not have the time at the moment.

                    3. Interesting … you agree with me, but Bald Humanist does not. I wonder what the state of progressivism in the U.S. really is? On the brink of of a breakout, or simply a dream …

                1. “Grow up.”
                  – He’s getting patronizing again, a sure sign he has nothing to defend his position.

                  “Look it up.”
                  – A favorite right wing dodge when they know they cannot defend a position.

                  “Understand you are the minority and people are
                  fleeing from Progressive ideas not embracing them. Where is your Blue
                  Wave?”
                  – Wait and see

          1. I think you may have missed the point. These are people like you who have woken up. So where I thought there was no hope I see there could be. I will spread #WalkAway far and wide. It is an epiphany.

              1. Ok. I looked at the first cite. Rape is not alleged in any of those cites. Why should I continue? Tell me who he Raped and give me her name so I can research. Juanita has told the world that Bill Raped her. There is a difference.

                1. Also, I dont actually vote democrat, so I don’t know why you’re bringing up Bill Clinton’s sexual assaults.

                2. Ivana Trump, Summer Zervos, Jill Harth, Jessica Leeds, Kristin Anderson, Natasha Stoynoff, Karena Virginia,

                  I should clarify that, as a lesbian, I define rape as any nonconsentual sexual activity that greatly compromises the mental wellbeing of the other party. If it makes a woman feel violated and degraded, I consider it rape.

                  1. Joslyn, thanks for your definition. It is not an acceptable definition in this discussion. But since you feel that way I am not going to press the point. Bill Clinton will be punished for his sins as we all will.

                    1. Although meaningful to you it is not capable of exact definition. Such a serious crime requires a very unambiguous definition and non-subjective as well.

                    2. If Trump has done things to women sexually that leave them feeling violated, degraded and susceptible to post-traumatic stress, I think there’s very little effective difference between that, and rape, don’t you?

      1. See Senator Feinstein: “Every Senate Democrat is now a co-sponsor of the legislation which would prohibit children from being separated from their parents within 100 miles of the U.S. border except for instances of abuse, neglect or other specific circumstances.”

        1. Strange that someone like you who is so anti-abortion would be in favor of traumatizing children.
          I guess its true what they say: once a child is born the “pro-life” crowd could not care less about them.

          1. David, there is no truth to your comment. The only reason that this issue exists is for Democrat political strategy. My position is that they should not be here or should be returned immediately. That is not abuse. Your fight is not with the President it is with the immigration system. However, it will not get Democrats elected.

            1. My position is that they should not be here or should be returned immediately.

              So you are saying America should accept absolutely no asylum seekers.

              And “immediately” means you kick someone out without subjecting them to any kind of due process, right?

            2. “David, there is no truth to your comment.”
              – I am not sure what part of your argument is escaping you. Are you saying that you agree with the senator’s efforts to keep children from being separated form their parents? If not, do you deny that such separation is traumatizing? If you do not deny this, how can you support it while also claiming to be an advocate for children?

              “The only reason that this issue exists is for Democrat political strategy.”
              – No, the only reason this issue exists is to distract the president’s political base. There is no immigration crisis in reality.
              https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/06/democrats-immigration-not-a-crisis/563855/

              “My position is that they should not be here or should be returned immediately.”
              – Let’s see what you Bible has to say on that. Oh look, it says your position is wrong.
              http://welcomingthestranger.com/wp_welcoming/learn-and-discern/scripture-and-immigration

              That is not abuse.”
              – Look at the quote you provided. It does NOT refer to open borders as you suggest. It is specifically about forbidding the arbitrary separation of children from their parents. Arbitrarily separating children from their parents IS abuse, and all the dismissals in the world will not change that fact.

              “Your fight is not with the President it is with the immigration system. However, it will not get Democrats elected.”
              – And, again, we see how freely right wingers sell out their values for political expediency.

              1. For a person with a Jewish sur name you sure don’t live up to your heritage. The Cohen were priests. Did you skip the training?
                Hope you saw McConnell last night explaining how he is going to seat the new Justice before the midterms. Progressive judicial activism is so screwed. Worse, Ginsburg won’t last through Trump’s second term and a third strict conservative will be on the court. Notice what a difference it made to the Travel Ban but much more significant it dealt a blow to the practice of extorting money from laborers to line the democrat coffers.

                1. “For a person with a Jewish sur name you sure don’t live up to your heritage. The Cohen were priests. Did you skip the training?”
                  – And, again we see your effort to deflect rather than address your failing position.

                  “Hope you saw McConnell last night explaining how he is going to seat the new Justice before the midterms.”
                  – That is how the system is supposed to work. In contrast to when Congress simply refused to vote on president Obama’s candidate for the sake of political expediency(which, again, we see is the only “virtue” which the right truly endorses.)

                  “Progressive judicial activism is so screwed.”
                  – The fight for human rights continues.

                  “Worse, Ginsburg won’t last through Trump’s second term and a third strict conservative will be on the court.”
                  – One gets used to hearing conservatives gloat. It makes it all the more charming when they abandon their previous positions when they are no longer expedient.

                  “Notice what a difference it made to the Travel Ban but much more significant it dealt a blow to the practice of extorting money from laborers to line the democrat coffers.”
                  – Yes, the refusal to vote on Obama’s candidate really paid off. Clearly the right’s abandoning of principles for political expediency is paying off. As I recall, Jesus asked what it profits a man if he gains the whole world but abandons his soul. But then, it seems that even your deity can be abandoned fr the sake of political expediency.

                  1. For such as you who complain, “again we see your effort to deflect”, I have to ask. Deflect what exactly?
                    Ask a specific question and I will answer.

                    1. And your hypocrisy is there for all to see.

                      When it was pointed out the gops position on Obamas candidate, all of a sudden its about deflecting.

                      Morons like you have prostituted yourselves to der fuhrer and you think somehow that makes you virtuous.

          1. “Rep. Keith Ellison, D-Minn., isn’t on the fringe of the Left. He is the second ranking member of the Democratic National Committee and he basically wears his immigration policy on his sleeve.” More specifically, the No. 2 Democrat wore a T-Shirt that literally said “I don’t believe in borders.”

            1. So no Democratic representative has called for open borders. Glad we settled that. You can remove it from your talking points about why you hate the Democrats so much.

        1. There is nothing wrong with borders, and no one in the Democratic party has suggested open borders. It’s a ruse.

          1. Plenty wrong with borders. For instance, it’s hard to have a war without them. Possible, but more difficult. It’s impossible to have a trade deficit without borders. Or immigration issues. Or corrupt customs officials. What good things do borders accomplish again?

              1. How about the US taking responsibility for f###ing up countries in central america eg honduras and the middle east eg syria, Palestine, yemen.

                The largest financier of oppressive regimes is washington ie Saudi Arabia, Israel, military coup in honduras

    3. Sigh….you are a lost soul of you see a n admittedly weak and fractured Democratic party as worse than blatant fascism.

      1. Do I see the Democrat Party embracing socialism and communism as a bad thing? It is truly frightening.
        Our current government structure is not fascist nor is it trending there.

  42. Bravo to you sir!!! As much as I would love to recommend this to my trump supporting friends, I am quite sure they would brush it off as casually as they brush off trump’s myriad shortcomings.

      1. And he is running it . . . . right into the ground! Embracing and praising dictators, trashing long standing allies, separating families, paying off pornstars, a chaotic revolving door of staff and officials in his misadministration, the list keeps growing. “A conservative is a person with two good legs who has not learned to walk forward.” – Franklin D. Roosevelt

        1. North Korea has been neutralized for the moment; you are foolish to repeat that Embracing mantra.
          Telling the world we will not be their Trade patsy anymore is long overdue. How does that effect you?
          Pornstars? Really. You expect me to care about his personal conduct 11 years ago. Grow up.
          Separating children as in the Obama started it and built your “cages.”
          Chaotic staff is just another democrat talking point and it is obviously not correct: tax reform, economic performance like no one has seen since Reagan, crushing ISIS, etc.
          Your facts are as skewed as your comments. Not one thing you mentioned is true or relevant.

          1. Ask Putin about the embracing. I think he’s rather fond of it.
            The effects of tariffs are not yet in. Patience Bob, patience.
            His personal conduct 11 years ago? The hush money payoff was just prior to the election. Try to keep up.
            Separating families is the result of a Trump policy, not an Obama law. Again, try to keep up.
            Yea, stability in this misadministration is a real strong point. Keep your head in the sand if you wish.

            1. Patrick, your understanding of facts is one way only.
              The only interest democrats have in Stormy is if they could convince a Liberal Judge that the money was a campaign contribution violation.
              The only interest democrats have in the family issue is if they can make points with their base. Democrats support the slaughter unborn children everyday; they watch the homeless and under privileged suffer everyday and could not care less.
              Today SCOTUS taught three liberal circuit judges a lesson; one they won’t soon forget. Try to keep up!

          2. North Korea is expanding their nuclear facilities, precisely as they have done after every other time they have vowed to denuclearize. https://www.wsj.com/articles/north-korea-still-building-at-nuclear-research-facility-despite-summit-diplomacy-1530100351

            Separating kids from their parents is a recent thing, since prior to the Zero Tolerance policy passed this year, standard practice was to charge parents with a misdemeanor and hold them with their kids in a family detention center if they were to be prosecuted further. The cages were certainly there and that’s a damn shame; why are they still there? Why are they being used today? You don’t get let off the hook for continuing an abominable practice simply because it’s tradition.

            As for economic performance, the DOW dropped 3000 points in the weeks after the tax bill was passed has been in a slump ever since. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/0d44644fdc632c9b7eba95a4eab70ebee3da3f3d3e7054b4864155607bc28e84.jpg

            1. Your grasp of foreign policy is weak.
              Your analysis of immigration issues is superficial as with most Liberals.
              Stock Market. Look at the GDP and you will realize what is going on.

        1. Not at all. I am saying that presidents are not pastors. Trying to conflate what some feel Jesus would do and what a president should do is often self-serving as seen repeatedly in this blog.

          1. Trying to conflate what some feel Jesus would do and what a president self-professed Christian should do

            FTFY. And this is why the argument is so odd. Conservative Christians were quite insistent that they knew what Obama should have gone and done with himself, being a Christian. Why so shy, now?

            1. Obama got a pass on the virulent personal criticisms because he was black and his detractors were afraid of being called a racist. He was rightly criticized for lying about Obamacare to get it passed and for failing to back up his Red Line in Syria and for his secret Iran agreement with a plane full of Cash in the middle of the night, etc.

              You do not know in general what conservative Christians said in distinction to conservatives. But I do not remember Obama being criticized for his actions as anti-Christian except when he allowed the Yazidi’s to be slaughtered and stood by while the Nigerian girls were taken captive, and tried to force the Catholic nuns to support abortion, etc.

              The point is we are not a theocracy but a constitutional republic. President Trumps critics are now irrational and borderline subversive. After the Blue Wave does not materialize and many Progressives are rejected the noise will settle down as this President is actually cleaning the swamp as impossible as that may seem.

              1. Yes, I do. First, they called him a bad Christian because he was a member of a radical pastor’s church. He left that church and then, they called him a Muslim. Conservative, Evangelical Christians lied about the “War on Christmas”, and the “War on Christianity” and tried to paint Obama, who is himself Christian, as anti-Christian.

                1. Who called Obama a bad Christian? Someone on Facebook?
                  No one in general knew he sat for 20 years in Reverend Wright’s church because he his it. When it was discovered he quit the church for show.
                  Obama called himself a Christian. His actions and Muslim sympathies caused those questions.
                  Evangelical Christians did nothing of the sort; the church leaders perhaps. So what?
                  But conservatives are the large group and evangelical conservatives are a much smaller group. How do you know that conservatives questioned his faith?

                  1. I live in the Bible belt. I know EXACTLY who Evangelicals are and what they thought about Obama.

                    1. First please define Evangelicals for me. Who are they and how many are there? There are about two billion Christians give or take. Are there 1,000,000 Evangelicals?

                      In general, people on the right accepted Obama for many reasons chief among them was a feeling he would heal the racial divide and they voted for him! When it became apparent that was not his intention and he started attacking the police from Cambridge to St. Louis, it hurt his popularity among conservatives. When it became apparent that he could not govern this country they abandoned him.

                      You are thinking about his few loud and vocal critics because that is what we are shown on TV. All presidents get criticized.

                    2. “First please define Evangelicals for me. Who are they and how many are there? There are about two billion Christians give or take. Are there 1,000,000 Evangelicals?”
                      No, this is a strawman.

                      “In general, people on the right accepted Obama..”
                      Hahahaha! That’s completely revisionist and holds not a single iota of truth. The Gates controversy didn’t happen until July of 2009, by then the Tea Party was already 5 months old and leadership on the right had already conspired against him.

                      “You are thinking about his few loud and vocal critics..”
                      Nope.

      2. If he is president of this democratic republic he is the national face of each of us, therefore we have full right to state our criticisms for the good of the republic… that is why the forefathers made sure we have free speech… it’s part of the checks and balances in the system… that is included in civics classes. We have a president who represents and works for the people and not a king or lord. For that I will turn to Jesus.

        1. Harassing people going about their personal business is one step closer to violence. Comments from Maxine exhorting harassment are not protected speech. She should be censured.

          1. I personally do not agree with some of the ways people are handling things and I especially thought Maxine crossed the line into dangerous dialogue (the same stuff Trump has done many times) but that does not take away from what I said in any way. You’ve simply tried to change the conversation, brother.

            1. “You’ve simply tried to change the conversation…” What then is the converstation?

              ” I am glad for the constitution, but the Bible trumps it any day”. Two separate documents: one Spirit and Truth; the other a landmark human achievement.
              “If he is president of this democratic republic he is the national face of each of us.” Presidents run the government not Facebook.
              ” that is why the forefathers made sure we have free speech” Not present at the leading Universities in this country anymore because Progressive Liberals don’t believe in Free Speech unless it agrees with their ideology.

              Note the Supreme Court just now has upheld the President’s travel ban showing the progressive circuit court judges to uphold the law not their personal political feelings. It is a ringing endorsement of Conservative principles!

              1. Its ok brother. I was trying to engage with you in conversation but you are more interested in “winning” and repeating random talking points. Thank you for your time and I wish you the best. Have a great week.

      3. _______ was elected to run the country not to run a congregation and be judged by them. (put in the name Hitler, Stalin, etc). We are called to pray and submit (different than obey – Paul didn’t). By the way my first Bible study was in James taught by a very close friend of Corrie Ten Boom (she passed away in the city I worked in). She is no doubt before our Lord but would be aghast at were the church has gone. Wheres a Bonhoeffer when you need him.

          1. As a software engineer I am away that there on some website there are bots…basically electronic people that post just to stir up the pot…divisive…fake news….unfacts.
            If and when our president says some that scripture doens’t say…or twists it…and you agree with him OVER scripture….then all I ask or pray is that you turn…2 millennia ago conservative religious leaders shouted “We have no lord but Caesar”. Are your doing the same….with the same final conclusion?

            1. You won’t find me confusing Scripture with Government. Conservatives don’t look to the President to quote scripture; but we applaud him when he does. It is refreshing to have a President that believes he is a Christian and bows to God rather than a sophisticated intellectual who presumes to speak for God; remember Nebucadnessar.
              But citing Hitler as a leftist bot will just ensure violence as the Left will not stop in their efforts to resist this President.

              1. As long as you realize that Hitler also quoted scripture AND thought God was on his side…..AND the Church (at lest some of it) was quite happy that he did. My son lives near the Church I hope to visit that Bonhoeffer spent some time with that helped him to decide to start the confessing church and resist Hitler.

          2. Your derogatory fantasy about Brian only indicates that you cannot refute his position.

            Only closeted Nazis dispute the accurate comparison between trump and hitler.

            1. Foolish and deluded people bleat like sheep waiting for a sign not realizing their impetus is from the Evil One. Better open your eyes while there is still time.

              1. “Foolish and deluded people”

                Matthew 5:22

                But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be
                subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

                That’s Jesus speaking by the way. So you’ve demonstrated, again, that conservatives explicitly and deliberately reject Christ.

            2. I guess you are a nazi out of the closet then, comparing Trump to hitler is offensive to holocaust survivors.

              1. Shoah survivors, in my admittedly limited but extant experience, are generally pretty sanguine about pointing out when things are heading down similar paths. Unless you are one, it is hard to take seriously your pronouncement about what offends victims of the Shoah, and even if you are one, you do not speak for the many others who have no problem seeing the connection and are not offended in the least by the drawing of it.

                1. “about pointing out when things are heading down similar paths.”
                  Like what? Did I miss a beer hall putsch or something?

                  1. I do remember some brownshirts khakipants who, according to your idol, included some very fine people, marching proudly and beating the crap out of black people. They did even manage to kill someone. They are scheduled for a repeat in DC in August.

                    When history repeats, not everything happens in the same order.

                    1. “I do remember some khakipants who, according to your idol, included some very fine people, marching proudly and beating the crap out of black people. ”
                      You don’t remember their opposition threatening conservative speakers on campus?
                      You don’t remember a crowd of 200+ backing a woman into a wall and throwing eggs at her?
                      You don’t remember the several fist fights that broke out at Trump rallies, which, if we see the destructive behavior of “antifa” on college campuses as evidence, were likely not instigated by Trump supporters.

                      “They did even manage to kill someone.”
                      You don’t remember a guy who killed 5 in uniform?

                      Have you not heard of protesting (illegal harassment actually) of Kirstjen Nielsen in a restaurant?
                      Have you not heard of Sarah Sanders being kicked out of a restaurant?
                      Have you not heard of the Florida AG getting spit on after screening a Mr. Rogers ?

                      Yeah, the impetus is certainly the “khakipants”. (sarc)

                    2. You don’t remember their opposition threatening conservative speakers on campus?
                      You don’t remember a crowd of 200+ backing a woman into a wall and throwing eggs at her?
                      You don’t remember the several fist fights that broke out at Trump rallies, which, if we see the destructive behavior of “antifa” on college campuses as evidence, were likely not instigated by Trump supporters.

                      You seem to know much, much less about the collapse of the Weimar Republic than you intimate. Even if your characterizations were correct, the primary symptom of systemic collapse of the rule of law and civil society was rampant streetfights between brownshirt gangs and the gangs of competing political groups, so that tracks pretty much perfectly.

                    3. “Even if your characterizations were correct, the primary symptom of systemic collapse of the rule of law and civil society was rampant streetfights between brownshirt gangs and the gangs of competing political groups, so that tracks pretty much perfectly.”
                      Are Trump supporters going to college campuses and busting windows?
                      Are Trump supporters egging women?

    1. They would. They are totally brainwashed and wrapped in their smug self righteousness. We may have to kidnap and deprogram them in the end…( said tongue in cheek….or not?)

              1. “Conservativism is intrinsically incompatible with Christ’s teachings.” Self-serving comments used to make you feel better about your rebellion. So did the angels who fell tell themselves the same thing. They were wrong and so are you.

                1. “Self-serving comments used to make you feel better about your rebellion.”

                  Nice confession. I hope it was a confession, because if you meant it about me – then it was damning slander on your part.

                  “So did the angels who fell tell themselves the same thing. They were wrong and so are you.”

                  Oh, so you meant it as slander. As a slanderer, Bob, you have barred yourself from the Kingdom of Heaven.

                  You’ve also made it explicitly clear that you not only cannot refute my position, you cannot help but prove it correct with your own behavior.

                  After all, slanderer, you just violated Christ’s commands, on purpose, to feed your ego, proving that you reject Christ.

            1. Iknow you by your lack of compassion. by your heart. but God is your judge in the end. You can rant on to Him.

              1. “They are totally brainwashed and wrapped in their smug self righteousness. We may have to kidnap and deprogram them in the end…” More descriptive of Progressives. Say hello to Maxine for me.

  43. This is a good article, thanks Dr. Corey.

    On note:
    “So you’re a loyal Trump supporter and a loyal Christian?
    I’m not so sure.”
    Take it easy with this.

    1. According to Jesus, you’re wrong with your ‘take it easy with this’ bit.

      24 “No
      one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the
      other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You
      cannot serve both God and money.”

      Matthew 6:24

      Frankly, Benjamin can be stronger about it. Conservativism is intrinsically incompatible with Christ’s teachings. You cannot serve both God and conservativism – which is entirely about getting and conserving as much wealth for yourself as you can.

      1. “which is entirely about getting and conserving as much wealth for yourself as you can.”
        Where’s you get this definition of conservatism?

          1. Lol well I’ve experience many a poor conservative and many a rich liberal. What say you about that?

            1. That there are a lot of people who believe they will one day be rich, and will step on the heads of everyone around them to do so, even though the rat race doesn’t, at the end of the day, do anything but screw them in favor of those who are already rich. Poor conservatives are those who drink the piss of the wealthy because the wealthy called it probiotic organic lemonade.

              Delusions of anticipated reward works better than actual reward, because it’s less expensive for the same results.

              1. “even though the rat race doesn’t, at the end of the day, do anything but screw them in favor of those who are already rich.”
                How does the rat race screw people in favor of those who are already rich?

                1. It tricks poor people into making the lives of rich people easier and lives of poor people harder by promising that if they work harder for less that they too can be rich, while rich people are actually working less to make more themselves.

                  1. “while rich people are actually working less to make more themselves.”
                    I bet you can’t support this claim;
                    You think Bezos work less?
                    You think Musk works less?
                    You think Jobs worked less at the end of his life (out of choice)?
                    You think the Millionaire Next Door works less?
                    You think Zuckerberg works less?
                    You think Gates works less?
                    You think Buffett works less?
                    You think Elison works less?

                    “It tricks poor people into making the lives of rich people easier and lives of poor people harder by promising that if they work harder for less that they too can be rich”
                    How do they trick people? They just “tell them a promise”? I’ve never gone to work because someone promised me I’d be wealthy one day; I went because they gave me money for my time and expertise.

                    1. Interesting. You equate wealth with effort?

                      So when a person passes down wealth to their children, like, say, Fred Trump, does that mean his children have worked adequately to deserve that wealth?

                    2. “You think Jobs worked less at the end of his life (out of choice)?”
                      Yes. Jobs was wealthy enough to never have to work another day in his life and he made the choice to continue his work until he unfortunately passed. Poor people don’t have that choice. If they make the choice to stop working, their lives stop working too.

                      “How do they trick people? They just “tell them a promise”?”
                      Yes. The latest iteration of this promise is “trickle-down economics”. Rich people convinced poor people to restructure our economic system to funnel more money into rich people’s hands with the promise that overflowing riches would one day trickle down and help the poor. It’s been at least 40 years and conditions for poor people have only gotten worse because the money they were promised never trickled down.

                      “I’ve never gone to work because someone promised me I’d be wealthy one day; I went because they gave me money for my time and expertise.”
                      That’s awesome, but people choose careers based on upward mobility all the time.

                    3. “Jobs was wealthy enough to never have to work another day in his life and he made the choice to continue his work until he unfortunately passed. ”
                      This is a much different claim from what I asked, which was:
                      “You think Jobs worked less at the end of his life (out of choice)?”

                      Yet, you admit he did work; I’d conjecture it’s because he loved to do that work. And I suspect he put in longer hours than I choose to to do it.

                      “Poor people don’t have that choice. If they make the choice to stop working, their lives stop working too.”
                      You just admitted that Jobs didn’t stop; for the record, Steve Jobs wasn’t born fantastically wealthy, he worked until he got to the point of being fantastically wealthy.

                      “Rich people convinced poor people to restructure our economic system to funnel more money into rich people’s hands with the promise that overflowing riches would one day trickle down and help the poor.”
                      How do they funnel money in to rich people’s hands?

                      “It’s been at least 40 years and conditions for poor people have only gotten worse because the money they were promised never trickled down.”
                      What poor people are you talking about?

                      “That’s awesome, but people choose careers based on upward mobility all the time.”
                      So you agree that upward mobility choice is an option “all the time”?

                    4. “This is a much different claim from what I asked, which was: “You think Jobs worked less at the end of his life (out of choice)?””
                      Again, my answer is yes.

                      “Yet, you admit he did work; I’d conjecture it’s because he loved to do that work. And I suspect he put in longer hours than I choose to to do it.”
                      Of course. What part of “chose to work” made you think otherwise?

                      “You just admitted that Jobs didn’t stop; for the record, Steve Jobs wasn’t born fantastically wealthy, he worked until he got to the point of being fantastically wealthy.”
                      Again, that isn’t a disqualifying statement. My original statement was that richer people “work LESS to make more”. Not once have made mention of people quitting altogether.

                      “How do they funnel money in to rich people’s hands?”
                      Cuts to social welfare programs that fund tax cuts and loop holes that allow rich people to get richer. The dissolution of government regulations that empowered employees and regulations that prevent consumers from being exploited by corporations.

                      “What poor people are you talking about?”
                      Are you seriously asking me to define poor? Ha!

                      “So you agree that upward mobility choice is an option “all the time”?”
                      No, Josh, that’s not even close to what I said.

                    5. “Are you seriously asking me to define poor? Ha!”
                      Yes, I’d seriously like for you to tell me what poor people are not fantastically better off than they were 20 years ago.

                      “Cuts to social welfare programs that fund tax cuts and loop holes that allow rich people to get richer.”
                      Wait wait wait, how do welfare programs get funded?

                      “No, Josh, that’s not even close to what I said.”
                      You said people choose career based on upward mobility all the time. I just rearranged your statement.

                    6. “Yes, I’d seriously like for you to tell me what poor people are not fantastically better off than they were 20 years ago.”
                      None of them are better off, they’re still poor. In fact, 5 million more people live at or below the poverty line today than in 1998.

                      “Wait wait wait, how do welfare programs get funded?”
                      Tax benefits.

                      “You said people choose career based on upward mobility all the time. I just rearranged your statement.”
                      More like you twisted my words to support whatever argument you were trying to make. You’re smarter than that. You can defend your position without stooping to something so childish.

                    7. “None of them are better off, they’re still poor. In fact, 5 million more people live at or below the poverty line today than in 1998.”
                      Who? Where is your data?

                      “Tax benefits.”
                      Who pays the taxes? Why should they pay more?

                    8. “Who? Where is your data?”
                      HHS puts out these statistics on a yearly basis, Josh. Google them.

                      “Who pays the taxes? Why should they pay more?”
                      The middle class. They shouldn’t, rich people should.

                    9. “HHS puts out these statistics on a yearly basis, Josh. Google them.”
                      I tried, but I can’t find anything about “5 million more since 1998”
                      Would you please paste a link?

                      “The middle class. They shouldn’t, rich people should.”
                      Um, are you kidding?
                      https://www.cnbc.com/2013/12/11/the-rich-do-not-pay-the-most-taxes-they-pay-all-the-taxes.html
                      https://taxfoundation.org/summary-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2016-update/

                      But beyond that, why should rich people pay taxes?

                    10. “Um, are you kidding?”
                      No. Rich people can afford to pay higher taxes because they’ve seen steady increases in their wages, while wages at poor end have been stagnant.

                      “But beyond that, why should rich people pay taxes?”
                      Because our economy is top-heavy and needs to be balanced. More supply-side econ won’t help us out of the mess we’ve made.

                    11. But it’s not that money their money? Do they not attain that money voluntarily?

                    12. Those questions are irrelevant. Regardless of who owns what or how it was earned, the economy will still be top heavy. Why are you protecting the people who are doing the most harm to the economy?

                    13. “Those questions are irrelevant. Regardless of who owns what or how it was earned”
                      What do you call it when something is taken from you without asking?

                    14. A false equivalence!

                      Taxation is NOT theft. It’s the price we as citizen pay for the privilege of doing business in this great nation.

                    15. “It’s the price we as citizen pay for the privilege of doing business in this great nation”
                      Yet you support changing the price paid depending on the individual and even upping it when you’ve determined they can handle it. How’s that not a shakedown?

                      Would the rules change if a mob determined you must pay to play in their neighborhood? Is that theft or a tax?

                    16. Yet you support changing the price paid depending on the individual and even upping it when you’ve determined they can handle it. How’s that not a shakedown?

                      Because they disproportionately benefit from the services taxes provide.

                      If taxes build a school, a student gets an education, while a captain of industry gets an educated workforce he can easily train.
                      If taxes build a road, a driver can get from A to B, while a captain of industry gets to move his products to points of distribution.
                      If taxes build an Internet, a disqus commenter can blather, while a captain of industry can pitch his product to pretty much every potential customer in the world.

                      It’s not hard to understand, when you start thinking. Fortune is built from three things: Hard work, luck, and everyone else’s help. The owner of the means of producing is an important role in the production and distribution of goods, but no more so than the worker that makes the good, or the customer that buys it, or the state that provides necessary infrastructure to make the transaction possible. But the owner makes more in remuneration for their role often by several orders of magnitude, because they are able to extract truly massive amounts of economic rent from the fact that infrastructure is a widely socialized expense.

                      So they should pay more.

                      That’s not a shakedown. That’s paying for what you get, and still getting a great deal.

                    17. “Yet you support changing the price paid depending on the individual and even upping it when you’ve determined they can handle it. How’s that not a shakedown?”
                      It’s called a progressive tax and not only is it fair, it’s legal.

                      “Would the rules change if a mob determined you must pay to play in their neighborhood? Is that theft or a tax?”
                      Another false equivalence. The mob and the government are not similar in any stretch of the imagination.

            2. “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat, but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” —John Steinbeck

      2. Mark,
        Your definition of conservatism is like someone on the right saying progressivism is all about creating large, inefficient, distant bureaucracies full of technocrats who want to control how other people live in order to further their quest for utopia. How can progressive Christians serve this God while claiming loyalty to Jesus?

        Do you think your definition of conservatism and my definition of progressivism are helpful definitions designed to convince others of the error of their ways or are they caricatures designed to make one’s own side seem more righteous?

  44. As a pastor in training, I was recently bullied by several of my church peeps for taking a stand regarding the refugee situation. it seems their go to thing is that I shouldn’t be political. I told them flat out it’s a moral issue and a Jesus issue. they didn’t want to hear it. It seems I’m on someone’s crap list now. but I feel somewhat of a prophet in these scary times. Benjamin you help me keep my ground

    1. Jesus was attacked and bullied too. “Blessed are you when men will revile you for MY NAME’s sake”. Be strong. Prayers.

    2. Lisa,
      My recommendation is to tell your fellow congregants that politics is merely the process by which people with different opinions and version of the good life live together peaceably under the same “roof” despite those differences. Not getting involved is just as political as getting involved. Taking Jesus seriously means we will engage in politics, and that’s a good thing. Christians need to be involved in the process of making decisions about how we live together. I think pastors should stay out of partisan politics…they shouldn’t be making suggestions to congregants on voting or be out rallying for particular candidates or parties…but helping their congregants work their way through various political issues is important. There are ways to do this that are respectful and there are ways to come across as dogmatic and condescending. And who knows…congregants might help their pastor work through some things too! Best to you in this effort. Thank you for your service to the church.

      1. Thanks so much for this SamHamilton.

        I struggle with just how much I should be involved in politics as a believer in and follower of Jesus. My current theological paradigm has real problems with the world and ideas of Caesar and empire. As such, I often lean to the side of cutting and running from the whole enchilada while attempting (and I emphasize “attempting”, I´m still not really good at it yet) to truly live a revolutionary, counter-cultural Gospel life that doesn´t engage the world of mars, mammon, militarism, etc.

        It was truly good to read something that helped me reflect on a more balanced approach with respect to the topic of political involvement for the Christian.

        Thanks again.

        [Edited]

        1. Thanks Matthew. I appreciate reading your comments here because I can tell you’re trying to work things out your words implicity admit you don’t have it all figured out. Your humility makes me want to be more humble about the things I think I know. I need to work on this.

          I share your desire to “cut and run” sometimes. It’s all so messy and dirty at times. But I don’t think that’s what we’re called to do. But it definitely helps to separate partisan politics from mere politics.

          1. Thanks so much SamHamilton. I have changed a lot over the last 10 years or so — in part through circumstances, but I think mainly it was a work of the Spirit.

            I was so far off the rails, so deep in Christian fundamentalism, it took an act of God to pull me out. I do try to be humble — often a quiet witness (not so much online :-)), maybe too quiet?

            I don´t have it all figured out, but I sincerely hope I have the important things figured out. I appreciate your posts as well. Blessings to you this week and beyond.

        2. It all comes down to do you support injustice or not?

          That’s what Jesus was killed for and what the prophets railed against.

      2. Thanks for your comments. I couldn’t agree more that “Christians need to be involved in the process of making decisions about how we live together.” I think that means a certain amount of giving honor where it is due, which (in my mind) requires recognizing the helpful sides of both (and more than two) perspectives. Helping their congregants work through political issues means giving space for different congregants to reach different conclusions, and it means encouraging all sides to be reflective about the possibility of self-righteousness.

        I can’t help thinking that whenever a church body becomes “captive” to a political movement, putting partisan pursuit of power ahead of principle and faith, that we crucify Jesus all over again. This is meant as a question for self-examination, not a weapon to use against the opposition. And fortunately, God raises him up, even after we do our worst.

    3. Ask them if Jesus or John the Baptist were ever political? John the Baptist condemned Herod’s adultery , and Jesus called the king a fox. Luke 13:31-33
      31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.

      32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

    4. To Sam’s cogent response below, I would add: never forget that each individual is precious in the eyes of God. Including those in your congregation. If your view on a political issue becomes a barrier to you learning to relate to them, some prayer is probably in order.

    5. Lisa: My wife is a Minister so I will add my two cents. She feels that she cannot minister to her congregation if she alienates any of them so she refrains from political commentary so that her Christian message does not get filtered. On appropriate national days, she adds blessing to government officials and prays for guidance for them.. We discuss it often and the pulpit IMHO is where the message of Jesus Christ gets delivered and the only influence she wants to convey is to follow and have faith in Jesus. Were I in the pulpit, I’d be political, I’m sure but that is not my calling.

    6. Given the alternative between permitting gangs of Muslims to run amok raping and murdering women as well as children or a narcissistic, pleonectic, irascible, philandering Antichrist misogynist . . . can there be a choice?

    7. Lisa, if you don’t mind some free advice that’s probably already occurred to you, my experience as someone who has pastored several small-town rural churches is that (depending on your denomination) you may have to choose between being a prophet and making a living? or maybe (depending on the congregation) after first winning their trust and love after a year or two, a church could more easily accept your prophetic teaching and preaching? Keeping a balance between “comforting the afflicted” and “afflicting the comfortable” (as the old saying goes) is something you’ll learn on the job — and may never be quite satisfied with! 🙁

  45. Thank you Dr. Corey for again speaking truth without apology. This should be required reading for every U.S. White Evangelical. Will they have eyes to see and ears to hear? Let’s observe:

          1. Trump is the one who suggested that people exercising their free speech be punished by being stripped of citizenship, a blatant, egregious violation of the first amendment.

            1. Come, come now. You mean Flag Burners? The President is just expressing a sentiment held by many people. He is entitled to his opinion just as you are.

      1. Brother, I am glad for the constitution, but the Bible trumps it any day

        (yes, the play on words was my bad attempt at a joke).

        1. The point is that we need to read the constitution through the lens of the Bible and not the other way around.

          1. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

            Sounds like they wanted nothing to do with religion in the Government.

  46. What’s sad is that we cause refugees with our bombing and arming of Islamic militants (especially in Syria) and then won’t accept the Christian refugees we’ve made. Assad is bad- but he was protecting Christians from radical Muslims. Rand Paul was crying out in the Senate wilderness about all this, to little avail. [there’s a TYPO in 2nd paragraph-“worldly leader”-not “reader”] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DveDwEk122Y

    1. Why did you specifiy Christian refugees?

      Are non-Christian refugees less than human, in your opinion?

      1. Most certainly notmost certainly not. Syria is a country with h a majority of Muslims, and has been invaded by radical Muslims that persecute, rape, and behead Christians- so they are in more need of asylum. Muslims murder Christian missionaries in many countries.

  47. Isn’t The Sound of Music basically the story of what’s happening at our border today? Except with dark-skinned people? Maybe if they sang “Edelweiss” as they crossed into America. . .

    1. Actually, the Sound of Music is a promotion of Roman Catholicism and it’s ‘king,’ with a hidden reference to Nebuchadnezzar’s, decree, “Now when you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, if you are ready to fall down and worship the image I made, very good. But if you do not worship it, you will be thrown immediately into a blazing furnace. Then what god will be able to rescue you from my hand?” – Dan 3:15

  48. Another great article I would share…but it was aksed “are you following some left leaning creed instead of Authentic Christianity”. Took a while to assure the friend (he’s an assoc pastor at a Calvary chapel) that no…I did not join any heretical cult…just trying live Christ like beyond the 9-11 AM sunday service.

    1. You made me read the Bible!! ?

      they shouted, “Take him away! Take him away! Crucify him!”
      “Shall I crucify your king?” Pilate asked.
      “We have no king but Caesar,”
      John 19:15

    2. So you advocate harm to the President? Who are you to judge him with death? Why do you even think this is appropriate? Grow up, get a life and stop this non-christian behavior before this turns on you.

      1. Did you read John 19:15b? It was talking about the religious leaders saying they dont want Christ…they wanted Caesar as lord. If you are equating Christ with Trump…well….others will get the point…but unless your eyes are opened ….

  49. MHO “nobody’s” have energy for a cult!! The one where they have the most interest is the one that tickles their ears! Their God is their belly!! It takes a revelation from the Holy Spirit and hitting the bottom where the addictions stop working in order to actually get the recovery ball rolling in order to have have any character at all like Jesus!!

  50. Oh, Thank you so much for this! I am forwarding it on. You tell it like it is so much better than I’ve been trying to do. Everything you say, I say AMEN to. The hypocrisy is astounding. How can they live with themselves and the lies they embrace? I see it in good friends I thought of as sincere Christians. How they at first were worried about Trump and his message and now embrace it and make excuses for it. I cannot understand this sea change except that the power of EVIL is powerful indeed.

  51. Conservativism and Christianity are mutually exclusive, one can be a Conservative, or a Christian, but not both.

    Conservative is based on selfishness – how to work the system to get as much for yourself, your family, your in-group, as possible, even at the expense of others. Every primary conservative position boils down to selfishness.

    Christianity is based on self-sacrifice, a deity so loving, it sacrificed itself on our behalf. Christ consistently taught selflessness, and his core law includes ‘treat everyone else as you want to be treated’. He also said that how we treat others, particularly the oppressed, reflects our relationship with Him – what we do for the oppressed, or to them, we do for or to Christ.

    One cannot serve conservativism and Christ. It is an either/or situation.

    1. This is both a strawman fallacy and a black-and-white fallacy.

      “Christianity is based on self-sacrifice”

      Christianity is based on Jesus. It was his, and only his, sacrifice and resurrection. Salvation comes from a complete trust in Jesus, making him your master. Our self-sacrifice is obedience, one of many works were are instructed to do, but it is not the essence of Christianity.

      If this argument is sound, then no Christian can participate in any political movement at all: Jesus himself rejected political involvement. The government does what it wants on threat of violence. It can only compel. Forcing others to “sacrifice” is not self-sacrifice. It is the antithesis of self-sacrifice. The only way to self-sacrifice is to do it personally. Political affiliation is irrelevant and selectively pointing it out is hypocritical.

      1. No, it is neither. You either don’t understand what either fallacy is, or you are spewing false accusations because you are threatened by the truth.

        “Christianity is based on Jesus. It was his, and only his, sacrifice and resurrection.”

        Jesus modeled self-sacrifice and taught self-sacrifice.

        “Salvation comes from a complete trust in Jesus, making him(sic) your master.
        Our self-sacrifice is obedience, one of many works were are instructed
        to do, but it is not the essence of Christianity.”

        No, salvation comes by grace, through faith. But hey, there has never been a conservative who trusts Jesus, or makes Him their master. Self-sacrifice is absolutely the essence of Christianity. But only a conservative, having rejected Christ, would argue otherwise.

        “If this argument is sound, then no Christian can participate in any political movement at all:”

        Now that is a straw man: “A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy
        based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent’s argument,
        while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that
        opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be “attacking a straw man.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

        “The government does what it wants on threat of violence. It can only
        compel. Forcing others to “sacrifice” is not self-sacrifice.”

        There’s another straw man fallacy. Good job, conservative.

        But instead of making excuses for the evil you endorse, you should actually embrace Jesus.

      2. I find it hard to believe anyone can read Matthew 5 and not think self-sacrifice is an essential part of Christianity. Among the list of prohibitions and prescriptions:

        1) Never attack anyone in any way, even verbally
        2) Forgive all debts against you
        3) It is better to lose your body than to lose your soul
        4) Do not defend yourself from harm
        5) Always give more than is demanded from you
        6) Love those who hate you and treat them as if they were your neighbor

    2. So I take it you’re a liberal? I think your definitions of ‘conservative’ are poor at best. In the context of ‘conservative and liberal,’ conservative is to hold more to the traditional way of life and liberal is to expand the ways of life not holding to tradition.

        1. It’s a generality, just as breaking tradition is. Use your imagination. Have you ever heard of slavery; women not being allowed to vote being examples of tradition that needed to be broke. Or any number of things in the 60’s revolution of ‘sex, drugs, rock and roll’ that maybe didn’t have such a positive effect on society.

      1. It used to be that conservatives slowed down change and liberals wanted to welcome change, but in modern times, what Mark1115 said is essentially correct — conservatives are for selfishness and liberals are for generosity. What we really need is a compromise between the two, but the Tea Party folks destroyed the idea that compromise is good for everyone. This has destroyed America.

      2. ” I think your definitions of ‘conservative’ are poor at best.”

        Yet you offer nothing to back up your thoughts other than your ego, your pride. Now Christian theology traditionally teaches that pride, ego, conceit – the selfish need to appear superior to others – is the root of all sin.

        Thanks, you’ve provided confirmational evidence for my position.

        Conservativism and Christianity are mutually exclusive.

        “liberal is to expand the ways of life not holding to tradition.”
        Isaiah 43:19

        See, I am doing a new thing! Now it springs up; do you not perceive it? I am making a way in the wilderness and streams in the wasteland.

        Isaiah 42:9

        See, the former things have taken place, and new things I declare; before they spring into being I announce them to you.
        Isaiah 48:6

        You have heard these things; look at them all. Will you not admit them? “From now on I will tell you of new things, of hidden things unknown to you.

        Isaiah 65:17

        [ New Heavens and a New Earth ] “See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

        Acts 3:21 21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

        Rev 21: 5
        5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

        1. I didn’t say it did. What I said was the accurate definition of ‘conservative’ is more accurately understood as the opposite of ‘liberal.’ You might try ‘googling’ “definition of ‘conservative’ vs. ‘liberal’ viewpoints”

    3. Yeah, and you have a mentality that is not so different from people who say you can’t be liberal and Christian. It’s believing only your side can have God. That’s a caricature of what you think conservationism is.

  52. Mark my words. “Christians” in America who endorse this man or who overlook his antichrist character will, sooner or later, be ashamed of their complicity in his heinous reign. I witnessed a conservative Christianity in Apartheid-era South Africa which was broadly silent before the state’s wickedness – or which endorsed it – and when finally the church was confronted by its lukewarmness it was catastrophic. We look back now and say, “How could we have been so blind? Were we afraid? Did we just believe the state and the state church’s propaganda and twisted truths? How did we end up on the wrong side of history, how did we find ourselves aligned with evil and judged by the church and history for our folly? American Christians beware, for the weight of the shame will be heavy.

    1. U.S. White Evangelicals supporting and defending Trump will not be raptured, but will live the remainder of their days trying and failing to justify their unjustifiable actions.

      1. Of course you are correct, theologicaly and scripturally. But it’s too bad. Am I the only one who has ever thought, “I wish these evangelicals who are so starry-eyed about The Rapture would GET raptured, so the rest of us could get to work on making a better and kinder world”? That’s my rapture myth – however, I am aware it’s a myth.

      1. James below are a few links which you may find interesting. I haven’t come across a thorough study on the subject of the guilt – and the denial of culpability – amongst white evangelicals who lived through Apartheid, and perhaps my point was a little overstated for rhetorical effect (I’m passionate about it). As a “white South African” – who was also a young conservative (and conflicted) evangelical in the late 1980’s – I have discussed this subject with many Christians and found much evidence of a strange mix of denialism, guilt and genuine repentance. I cannot speak for them all, but the effects of moral compromise seem deep and long-lasting:

        Conservative churches apologise:

        https://mg.co.za/article/1997-11-19-conservative-churches-apologise

        CHURCHES CONFESS TO FAILURES UNDER APARTHEID:

        http://www.justice.gov.za/trc/media%5C1997%5C9711/s971117k.htm

        Justifying Injustice with the Bible: Apartheid:

        https://www.cbeinternational.org/blogs/justifying-injustice-bible-apartheid

        http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/026537888700400111

        https://newrepublic.com/article/118135/adriaan-vlok-ex-apartheid-leader-washes-feet-and-seeks-redemption

        GERMANY, SOUTH AFRICA AND RWANDA: THREE MANNERS FOR A CHURCH TO
        CONFESS ITS GUILT
        Philippe Denis:

        https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.upjournals.co.za/index.php/SHE/article/download/2721/1819&ved=2ahUKEwjDvM_2lJncAhVJI1AKHchnD_E4HhAWMAF6BAgDEAE&usg=AOvVaw0QJp-OMwd8CMZgXxXnO20y

    2. Such regret would require a level of honesty and introspection that I don’t believe conservatives and evangelicals of this ilk have. More likely, they’ll blame liberals, the “deep state” and the “fake news” media for Trump’s failures. And no matter what, Trump will go to his grave convinced he was the Greatest President Ever and that he truly Made America Great Again.

  53. I’m glad you’re finally of seeing the light, but I’m not sure how much change you can actually affect until you recognize that this is exactly what white supremacist evangelical Christianity has been since at least the Reagan era, and not some sort of aberration that was somehow single-handedly caused by Donald Trump.

    This reeks of ass-covering, frankly.

  54. I agree with every statement but its cyclical. Christians who support Republicans say the same things that Christians who support Democrats. Go back to Clinton and look at what was written about his Christianity. Its an American problem. We crave power.

    1. Craving power is not an American problem, it’s a human problem, mostly a male human problem. Maybe we should get rid of all the males? 🙂

      1. No, women crave power too. It’s just that for most of human history men have had more power and thus more ability to effectively get more.

  55. “I must admit that I hardly recognize the very people who raised me.”

    I presume that you were raised by traditional evangelical Protestants. The list is a revealing glimpse into the differences between (some) mainstream Protestants and the Anabaptists.

    #10, #1. Those Anabaptists I discussed this with came out in two different ways. Some would never vote for Trump. The rest were voting for Trump precisely because he was the best available choice. Yet none voted for Hillary. I didn’t know anyone who voted for Trump because they thought he was a great person and I don’t think anyone regrets their choice.

    #9: This is a strawman argument. Enforcing laws doesn’t mean we have to act inhumanely. The two are not mutually exclusively. The solution to inhumane acts is to act humanely, not to cease enforcing the laws.

    #8, #7, #6, #5, #3: Most of these fly directly against the Anabaptist teachings. They highlight some key differences between the Protestant and the Anabaptist. We give no allegiance to the state, but we pray for our leaders, regardless of political affiliation. We believe in non-violence.

    #4: Helping the poor and feeding the hungry has always been an Anabaptist focus, as is general charitable work. Heifer International was originally developed out of the Church of the Brethren and has income of nearly $150 million/year. MCC has income of nearly $90 million/year. Here lies another strawman. Helping the needy is not mutually exclusive to opposition of SSM. Indeed, the Lancaster Mennonite Conference’s split with the the Mennonite Church USA highlights this. The LMC makes the claim that it is the MCUSA that has been making exceptions to biblical values. So even if Protestants are guilty of hypocrisy on some biblical values, it doesn’t logically follow that any of their other doctrines or political positions (e.g. SSM) are incorrect .

    So you’re a loyal Trump supporter and a loyal Christian? I’m not so sure.

    It’s the fallacy of the excluded middle: there are many more options than just “blind unthinking Trump loyalist” and “completely anti-Trump”. Many Christians support a wide selection of Trump’s policies. This does not necessitate approving of his faults.

    What is the point? Is it to try to push an anti-Trump political agenda, as recent previous posts have done? Or is it to push people towards a more Christ-like way of living. This article reads like the former.

    It’s easy to make this apolitical. If you are a traditional Protestant and some of Dr. Corey’s criticisms describe you, consider embracing an Anabaptist denomination.

    1. I think Mr. Corey’s central point is the ‘Cyrus the great’ labeling of Trump by so much of Evangelical Christendom. In a nutshell, I understand Corey’s message to be addressing the, “Obama is the antichrist and Trump is the savior” mentality. But Christendom if filled with foolish brides. Christianity, in its proper and authentic application, is referring to the remnant; the 8 souls who boarded the ark, the 2 families who saw the promised land, the 3 souls that survived Sodom and Gomorrah, the discerning believers who left Jerusalem at the warning of Messiah, “And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.” – Luke 21:20.

      1. “I understand Corey’s message to be addressing the, “Obama is the antichrist and Trump is the savior” mentality.”

        Yes, I understand this to be the message as well. As an Anabaptist as well, I’m sympathetic. I agree with most of the criticisms.

        My problem is the presentation of this message. Using fallacious and incorrect arguments only hurts your case and makes you look dishonest, especially when you turn it into political speech. This post continues the recent trend of Dr. Corey posting some incredibly one-sided political commentary in a hypocritical manner. This does not show good faith.

        If you truly want to convince someone that they are not showing Christ-like love, then the last thing you want to do is accuse them of not being real Christians, mocking them (“Trumpianity”), and being snarky. I don’t doubt that some people who hold the views that Dr. Corey is criticizing deserve that snark, but this isn’t targeted at any specific individuals. Snark makes for amusing reading, but it’s not exactly effective at persuasion.

        1. Thanks for the reply. I’m not familiar with Dr. Corey but see your point in what I perceive to be an unbalanced and inaccurate criticism as well. And though the ‘Trumpianity’ is edgy, it is something I’ve been extremely frustrated with as well and have addressed it at times with a similar snarkiness. As for the 10 signs, we who do see this often times blind support for Trump could compile a more accurate analysis including the ignorance so many have for Trump’s historical associations with the global elite, gambling industry, Hollywood and entertainment industry, just for starters. What a miraculous conversion to Christianity Trump had shortly before his entry into politics. I’m sure it was as genuine as Constantine the Great’s was as political Rome realized “the gates of hell were not going to prevail.”
          As the more recent Vladimir Lenin stated, “The best way to control the opposition is to lead it ourselves.”

      2. about the 8 souls who boarded the ark: one of the sons “saw” Moses drunk and naked (disobeying!) Most trumpians believe he had intercourse with his father, that’s why he was condemned. A worthy soul, eh? Couldn’t have picked a better person? Did you god HAVE to murder everyone in the world? Nah. he does what he wants. commit genocide, break his own laws, allow rape of daughters, kill only women who have affairs and not men… shall I go on? BTW – I take it you don’t eat shellfish, don’t wear mixed cloth, don’t ever shave or cut your hair, have no tattoos, don’t eat pig or other cloven hoof aminals. You believe in obeying EVERY SINGLE verse in the book, right? You can’t be righteous unless you do.

        1. Pat, that would be Noah who was seen drunk and naked by his son, Ham.
          But aside from the sarcastic education, what a ridiculous bunch of nonsense you’ve said. But I can connect the dots. The truth is that fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Therefore, the lack of the fear of God, which you obviously have, is the beginning of foolishness. Don’t let me stand in your way.

  56. This article promotes a caricature which shows normal, sensibile people as wild-eyed nuts. It is akin to the way a fun house mirror works. I know plenty of Trump voters, none of them look like the picture we are shown here. I’m sure you can find some people who slightly resemble this in the “backwater” of the right. That’s where we prefer to keep them. On the other hand, the left celebrates their wild-eyed nuts, electing them and celebrating them in entertainment media (see Maxine Waters, Kathy Griffin and Samantha Bee for starters.)

    1. The Left has become deranged. Their anger has blinded them. Now they believe they have the right to stop our President and anyone who supports him. Are there no adults left on the Left?

      1. Yes, there are some sensible people over there, but their voices are being drowned out by the anger mill.

    2. Unfortunately for Trump supporters—they can only serve one master, not two. They have made their choice, and this is how history will remember U.S. White Evangelicals still following Trump.

      1. The President is elected to serve us, not the other way around. We don’t serve President Trump, we support him in the good things he is doing. And on the issues on which we disagree, we don’t support his actions. I supported President Obama in some of his decisions, like when he ordered the mission to kill Osama bin Laden. But I didn’t *serve* him and I don’t *serve* Trump.

        1. Refugee children separated from their family and indefinitely imprisoned are not comforted by your support for Trump. I’ll stick with Jesus, no matter how much that distrubs you.

      2. Trumpsters worship Trump, and Trump worships money. God ain’t nowhere to be found — the Fundamentalists SAY he is, but don’t believe a Fundie. They can do anything and justify it… they’re a little bit crazy to begin with.

  57. I support Trump and it has nothing to do with Christianity. I don’t give a damn if the man worships a cabbage. I support his policies.
    Funny how the writer of this article sits in judgement of others, though.
    Isn’t that a big no no with you so called Christians?

    1. While the wannabe dictator-in-chief sits in judgment of NFL players who exercise the rights represented by the flag while he calls them sons of bitches, then he sings the praises of murderous dictators like Putin and Kim Jong Un. How very American of him!

      1. Nonsense again. Respect our flag. This President takes our safety seriously and he has stopped North Korea; something no other President has even dreamed of.

        1. Respect the rights the flag represents. The flag itself is but a symbol. Go ahead and salute it, stand for it, whatever, but if you don’t respect the rights it represents, you’re just blowing hot air.
          BTW, Obama spoke of meeting with Kim and was absolutely torched by the right wing for saying so. trump mentions it and is hailed as a hero. Can you spell or say h-y-p-o-c-r-i-s-y? And trump hasn’t stopped anything. NK has reneged on previous agreements umpteen times. Taking bets that they will do so again.

          1. Trump has humbled the mighty NFL and its Players for dis-respecting or Flag. You have lost perspective due to your hatred and disdain for the man in office.
            Obama was a feckless fool on foreign policy: North Korea, Syria, Iran, Poland and ISIS, etc.

          1. As of now:
            1.From testing and launching missiles in a provocative way.
            2.From threatening the USA and his neighbors.
            They are working out the details as we speak. If it does not proceed as agreed to there will be consequences for Kim. Kim knows this and he has decided to leverage his position to stay in power.
            By the way, another SCOTUS disaster for Liberals and Democrats this morning on top of a primary debacle in NY.

        2. North Korea has promised to denuclearize at least 10 times since 1985. Haven’t seen it happen yet.

          1. It is possible that North Korea is not sincere.
            But I would not bet against Trump; he has convinced China to help him.
            Also, Kim is not sure that Trump won’t attack him and he wants to stay in power.
            The Left is left with carping about Trump’s conduct during an historic meeting – pitiful whining.

        3. “Nonsense again. Respect our flag.”
          – Didn’t your deity say that his kingdom was not of this world?

          “This President takes our safety
          seriously and he has stopped North Korea; something no other President
          has even dreamed of.”
          – And yet, no schedule for the denuclearization of North Korea has been revealed, let alone been enacted. It is clearly a bit premature to start praising this as a success for your man.

  58. Support for Trump is a symptom of an empire in decline, naked, afraid and feeling the loss of power and prestige. Enter, a tough talking “Make America Great Again” leader who promises to bring glory, prestige, power, prosperity and respect back to the Empire that is past it’s prime. Trump’s rise is a response to a deep seated fear – mainly death terror. Tribalism always thrives on fear and uncertainty.

    1. Nonsense. Trump’s victory was totally unexpected by most especially democrats. He was elected mainly on his economic and immigration promises. He will be judged on the same promises. He has already produced an economic miracle. immigration is next.

    2. Spot on.

      Trump’s mantra is like Adolf Hitler’s promise to. “Recapture the glory of the old Germany” (paraphrased).

        1. Hitler wasn’t Hitler to start with. Trump’s just testing the waters – demonise whole groups of people (racial, religious, economic), and see how persecuting them plays; then carry on.

          Trump’s “Economic Miracle” – giving billions to the already wealthy and taking it from the poor? I suppose it’s a miracle that he has any but the wealthy supporting it.

          1. The President in our country is the head of the Executive Branch. There are three branches of government in our system. This provides the checks and balances that have prevented the takeover of this country since its founding.
            You can try to make an argument about social engineering but you cannot deny the economic numbers. This is one of two major reasons Trump was elected. His support is broad and growing.

            1. Germany was a republic before Hitler took over. He slowly absorbed power to where he became a dictator. There’s no reason Trump couldn’t do that, especially with the cowardice Congress is showing in trying to stop anything he is doing.

              1. Yes there are many reasons.
                True Congress is woefully divided but after the midterms the Republican Senate majority will be more than sufficient to get immigration passed.
                You may not like it.

            2. The three branches are all Republican; the only checks and balances are Republican politicians, who so far have pretty much gone along with everything Trump says: the takeover is happening, now, while conservatives keep pretending everything is normal.

              Economic miracle – take money from the poor and give to the wealthy – is that what you mean? Just what Jesus would have done. The US economy is buggered, but with the trade wars he’s starting the rest of the world will soon be in the same place.

              He breaks treaties on a whim. He is openly racist, openly misogynistic; childishly hostile, casually insulting the the leaders of other countries, allied countries. He is vindictive, cruel, petty, vicious, mendacious; he is dangerous, and you Republicans look the other way or make excuses for him. How can you do it?

              1. The democrat talking points you list are vacant and devoid of substance. They will not help the democrats in the mid-terms either. Your analysis is flawed. Republicans are not all in support of the President. The never Trumpers number in the hundreds. Conservatives are thrilled that Trump is turning the country around and so quickly; from the economy to foreign policy to freedom of religion, et. al.
                Your list of negative attributes shows your hatred of the man and blinds you to his accomplishments – but we don’t care.

                1. Things that are happening are just “talking points” now – I get it. Taking children from their parents and locking them in cages before losing them is just a talking point. Ok.

                  Those repubs who are not in support of Trump are keeping their heads well down, aren’t they?

                  And, Turning the country round – to what? Can’t you see what he’s doing? His one accomplishment is staring the US on a road to outright fascism – a normal president does not get so upset about criticism that he threatens journalists and other people who have annoyed him. He lies every time he opens his mouth, with lies that are easily shown as such. He encourages his supporters to attack businesses and people he doesn’t like.

                  But you don’t care – you don’t dare that your president is seen across the world as a malicious buffoon, you don’t dare that he’s dangerous, you don’t care about the damage he’s doing to your country and its reputation. You don’t care that he shares – with approval – tweets from the accounts of neo-Nazis, you odon’t care that he has no idea of how he’s going to clear up the mess he’s created over the treatment of asylum seekers – and you don’t care that he doesn’t care either.

                  What would make you care? What would have have to do for you to say anything against him?

                    1. They are facts.

                      What would have have to do, since – to take one – the neo-Nazi stuff is not enough for you?

                    2. No those are partisan facts. The Press is by and large the communication arm of the Democrat Party. They are not journalists. There is no truth in them just opinion like your comments. Terms like Neo -Nazis and Asylum Seekers are just incendiary invective designed to get Liberals like the people on this site emotionally upset.

                    3. There is no such thing as a partisan fact.

                      Neo-Nazis exist: people today who sport swastikas and chant Nazi slogans and the like. They were at Charlottesville. And Trump has supported them. That’s not a partisan fact: it has happened, at least twice that I know of.

                      An asylum seeker is a someone who has applied for asylum in a country other than their own. That is not illegal. You ought to be grateful that it’s not something you will ever have to do, and show some empathy for those who do have to.

                    4. In this case there is. Re-read the story and you will see it was purposefully mis-reported.
                      Trump did no such thing. The media said he did. They lied.
                      THE PRESIDENT: Those people — all of those people –excuse me, I’ve condemned neo-Nazis. I’ve condemned many different groups. But not all of those people were neo-Nazis, believe me. Not all of those people were white supremacists by any stretch. Those people were also there because they wanted to protest the taking down of a statue of Robert E. Lee.
                      The vast majority of the country want illegal immigration stopped not encouraged.

                    5. No, he had just enough deniability to get out of it, but – crucially – to allow the Nazis to believe he hadn’t condemned them. And he retweeted – with approval – some anti-Islamic lies from a British neo-Nazi group.

                      No illegal immigration: people seeking asylum. The vast majority of people wanted to turn away Jewish refugees in the 30s: a proud moment in any nation’s history

                      Anyway, someone seems to have done Trump’s bidding and killed some journalists, and righties all over the internet are cheering – happy now?

                    6. So you believe Trump is a neo-Nazi sympathizer? You are in a small group of Trump hater there aren’t you?
                      Immigration is a big problem and Liberals have no solution. Open borders has no support and it should not.
                      I am starting to believe you are not all there with that last comment. I know the Media is invested in Trump’s impeachment and you know it but we don’t advocate killing them. By saying someone killed at Trump’s bidding casts you as a wack-a-doo!

                    7. He’s not necessarily a sympathiser himself, but he doesn’t want neo-Nazis to think that: the easiest thing in the world is to condemn Nazis outright, and he couldn’t do it: he hedged about, allowing Nazis to think he’d done well by them. And retweeting some anti-Muslim crap by a British neo-Nazi group is at best stupid – but he isn’t stupid, not like that: he know who that kind of thing appeals to. (He left his retweet up, by the way; the original tweet was taken down, but he left his: he’s not going to back off, not even with something like that.

                      Trump’s talk of the Media as the Enemy of the US people is the talk of a fascist; after the Pizzagate thing (a conspiracy promoted by people close to Trump, with no attempt by Trump to deny it) where someone with a gun went to rescue the children that were supposed to be locked in a non-existent basement by Hillary (Christ, and you call me wack-a-doo), that kind of talk is irresponsible. And that woman from the NRA saying journalists should be curb-stomped: another Trump supporter who won’t back off.

                      Anyway. we’ll see how he plays this: but he’s not going to pull back, is he? And there were a lot of his supporters on the internet last night delirious that journalists had been killed, and he wants to keep their support. So, he’ll do a general statement, and he won’t say anything about his words, or the words of his supporters. And then in a few weeks or months he’ll be back on the fascist “enemy of the people” fake news crap.

                      It’s odd, hearing Americans talk about immigration being a problem. Maybe you ought to have thought of that before.

                      And – again – how far does he have to go before you stop supporting him? Then again, however far he goes, it would probably be fake news and he never said it – that’s how it usually works, doesn’t it?

                    8. Sorry. You are not a serious person. Your hatred is pretty far off the charts. But you can shift your anger to McConnell now as he is committed to replacing Justice Kennedy before the new session starts. This will lock out Supreme Court activism for 40 years.

                    9. It’s all liberal tears with you lot, isn’t it? It doesn’t matter how much it will screw everything up, just as long as if upsets the libs.

                      It seems that Trump could do anything and you’d still support him. He’s already onto the Nuremberg stuff, threatening the freedom of the press, sicing his attack dogs onto people who have displeased him, etc.

                      Get out of your bubble and try and see what it looks like from outside for once. He is not a good man.

                    10. Lol….you really a hypocritical moron….

                      Partisan facts – thats you all over derpy.

                    11. Bones… it’s been a while! Just a heads-up: a fraudulent Disqus account impersonating me has again resurfaced. This is the 6th occurance of such harrassing behavior.

                      While the Evangelical troll can steal my username and avatar, he lacks the tools to steal my profile history. My Disqus account was opened in 2011, remains public, with 4,780 comments and 14,158 upvotes. The abuser’s fraudulent account is set to private, of course, and was opened in June 2018:

                      https://disqus.com/by/disqus_n7HXeYjpge/

                      Evangelical trolls certainly have earned their abusive reputations.

                    12. Well, this is the 6th occurance of the fraudulent impersonation account. Then there are also the three private Disqus accounts who post nothing other than frothing-at-the-mouth condemnations targeted directly at me. Then there are the numerous public Disqus users like SamHamilton whose practice of Evangelical communication is limited to obfuscation, derailment, denial, unwarranted attacks, and other bullying attempts to silence those he’s unable to legitimately argue against.

                      Why should we expect any less, as you say.

                    13. Report of his recent rally in S Carolina:

                      “Trump calls the media “the enemy of the people,” then brags about a
                      woman who was recently interviewed and said there was nothing Trump
                      could possibly do to lose her support.”

                      “Enemy of the people”, for saying things he doesn’t like – doesn’t that bother you?

                    14. Since you did not watch the Rally your comments are second hand. But in fact, we agree that the Media are no longer journalists but Democrat operatives. Why should you care what another fellow citizen thinks about her President? Your opinion should count more because you are a Liberal? That’s what you are saying.

                    15. I read a commentary on it. The Leaders who call the Media “The Enemy of the People” are always fascist. Trump can’t stand criticism. This is a president who’ll call his followers to mob one person who has annoyed him – pathetic.

                      How do you work that out? In England newspapers criticise the Conservative Government without being called Labour papers – Conservative papers criticising a Conservative Govt – how about that?

                      What would Trump have to do to lose your support? He once boasted that he could murder someone and people would still vote for him. He’s shown that he can take children away from their parents and put them in cages and his followers still worship him. I’m not saying my opinion counts for more, ,just that Trump’s followers seem to be able to support him whatever he does. So, I ask once again, what for you would count as going too far?

                    16. You are wrong. Trump will not allow the Fake News Media to define him and they cannot abide that simple fact. The person who has called for mob action is Maxine and she should be and will be censured for her comments.

                      Your frustration with this President is just beginning. He is fulfilling his campaign promises one at time despite interferrence
                      from all sides: Media, Never Trumpers, Democrats, Elites and Progressives.

                    17. Waters has had threats – including one serious death threat – since Trump misrepresented what she said. What a piece of work he is. And you still support him.

                    18. Sorry. Water is on tape urging confrontation which will lead to violence. Your side has already shot a Republican Congressman but it is going to get worse I fear. Even Schumer told Waters to shut up!

                    19. Not violence: she said, not violence She said to ask them about taking children from their parents and putting them in cages. She’s not calling a huge section of the population “Enemies of the People.” (Doesn’t the use of those words embarrass you, even a little bit?)

                      On the other hand she has had death threats: and, if you want to talk about sides, your side has killed dozens, hundreds of Americans, including many children; although Trump supporters have said the children were actors and speaking from a script and no one has got killed. This is the kind of person Trump endorses (Alex Jones, for one).

                      You still haven’t said what you would consider as having gone too far.

                    20. I did reply. If this President used his powers to spy on his opponent in the next election in order to try and defeat him and then get him impeached that would be too far. Sound familiar yet?

                    21. I know what you’re getting at, and I didn’t think it was worth a comment – another Trump defence, isn’t it? Accuse your opponent of the thing that you’ve done yourself. And when there is an investigation into that and nothing found (except Trump’s accusation) you’ll just say there was a cover-up, yes? You’re just doing what all Trump supporters do. Not an original thought in your head.

                      Do you think the media is the Enemy of the People? And don’t you think that was an unfortunate phrase to use, what with its association with dictator types?

                    22. The soft coup executed by the Obama administration to try and stop Trump then to try and hobble his administration has been uncovered and the fumigation is under way: Andrew McCabe, Peter Strzok, Lisa Page, James Comey, James Rybicki; James Baker; Mike Kortan, David Laufman. Next up: Clapper, Brennan, Rosenstein, Rhodes and Power.

                      The Media is the reason you don’t know many of the names above. The Media has decided to destroy Trump because he has shown them for what they are. The major Media outlets are the Enemy of the People: CNN, MSNBC, Washington Post, et. al. But there power has been checked. This President is not intimidated by them. Your comment indicates you believe the scheme. People with your understanding obviously do “Not (have) an original thought in your head.”

                    23. Yes, Liberal Tears – that’s all you’ve got. “Fake news” – like the fake news that Obama’s inauguration crowd was so much larger than his, fake news like him instituting a policy to separate children from their parents, and still having no idea – and not caring – what he’s gong to do about them now.

                      Maxine Waters hasn’t threatened anyone, and Republicans loved it when some right winger did the same to Joe Biden one time.

                      Trump has called the media The Enemy of the People – doesn’t that bother you, even a little bit? Your president being unable to handle any criticism and mouthing off like some pathetic tinpot dictator? Obama never did anything like that. Trump has attacked and demonised the press since long before the start of his presidency, and this is the result, and you don’t care – those liberal tears taste so sweet, don’t they? Who cares about a few journos getting wasted.

                      And you still haven’t said what could count as going too far for him, so I can only assume that you will never think he’s gone too far, whatever he does.

                    24. Maxine Waters is under review in the House for her outrageous statements.

                      There is something that our President could do to lose my support:
                      He could orchestrate a plot to use the FBI and DOJ to spy on his campaign opponent in the 2020 election.

                    25. So, not colluding with Russia?

                      (I know what you’re getting at there, by the way. Didn’t happen. He’s a paranoid shitehawk.)

                    26. You don’t know much because you don’t accept information you don’t like. Colluding is not a crime. He didn’t collude. Where is the proof if he did?

                    27. The Billy Bunter defence – “I didn’t do it and it doesn’t matter if I did because it’s not illegal – yaa!”. Also the Donald Trump defence. There is plenty of evidence, though Trumpites either ignore it, or accuse everyone else of doing it. The investigation already has 17 indictments and 5 guilty pleas, or people high up in the Trump organisation, which is pretty good going for something with no evidence and not illegal anyway: and why won’t Trump release his tax returns, as he has promised to do so many times? What is he hiding?

                    28. The soft coup executed by the Obama administration to try and stop Trump then to try and hobble his administration has been uncovered and the fumigation is under way: Andrew McCabe, Peter Strzok, Lisa Page, James Comey, James Rybicki; James Baker; Mike Kortan, David Laufman. Next up: Clapper, Brennan, Rosenstein, Rhodes and Power.

                    29. You’ll have to be de-toxified when Trump’s finally out.

                      “Soft coup” ffs. Trump has broken the law. He is trying to take your country into totalitarianism. And you don’t care.

                2. Yeah… Harley Davidson is thrilled… nail manufacturers are thrilled… and how’re those coal miners doing? Looking to create a hundred new jobs? That’ll fix everything, I’m sure.

                  Shame about your 401K though. Oh well, nobody actually counted on retiring anyway.

        2. Remember, words on a forum are inciting violence, but sentiments like this

          You know, part of the problem, and part of the reason it takes so long, is nobody wants to hurt each other anymore, right? And they’re being politically correct the way they take them out, so it takes a little bit longer. And honestly, protesters, they realize it. They realize that there are no consequences to protesting anymore. There used to be consequences, there are none anymore.

          and

          He was a guy who was swinging [punches] — very loud, and then started swinging at the audience and you know what, the audience swung back, and I thought it was very, very appropriate. He was swinging, he was hitting people, and the audience hit back. And that’s what we need a little bit more of.

          and

          If you see somebody getting ready to throw a tomato, knock the crap out of them, would you? Seriously, ok. Just knock the hell — I promise you I will pay for the legal fees, I promise.

          are not.

  59. Will any evangelical Trump supporters admit they applied a different standard about adultery to President Clinton than they apply to President Trump?

      1. While you are simply a slanderer.

        A Bible scholar, Bob, would know better than to bear false witness, or call people fool.

      2. First of all, Clinton was not convicted of sexual assault in any form. Your Bible refers to what you have just done as baring false witness. But, apparently, your deity ignores the sins of political conservatives.

        Second, you seem to be suggesting that some sins are not as bad as other sins. It used to be that no evangelical would ever say anything like that. They used to say that all sin was equal because it all made one worthy of death. But, apparently conservative theology changes as needed for the sake of political power.

        1. I don’t know if any Christians claim all sin is equal, but Christ didn’t teach that at all. For example, He stated in John 19:11, “The one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”

          With regard to Trump, he has engaged in terrible sexual behavior, but that does not disqualify him from serving as the President.

          1. The idea of some sins being worse than others was dismissed by American Protestants as a papist corruption, at least when I was young. But, again, it seems that theology can change when it is politically expedient.

            And it is true that Trump’s perversion does not disqualify him from serving as president. That was never the issue. The issue is how Evangelicals can support him in spite of his unrepentant perversion. In the Gospels, Satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world if he would worship him. It seems that American evangelicals have jumped at the offer which Jesus refused.

            1. Ok, so these “American Protestants” obviously dismissed the words of Jesus in the Bible. Or they think Jesus was a papist.

              1. They relied on Romans 6:32 for their position. But, as you have shown us, there seems to be little point in citing biblical passages. For every biblical passage there is an equal and opposite biblical passage.

                Makes one wonder why anyone should bother.

          2. Yeah unlike making fun of disabled people, dog whistling to racists about blacks and mexicans…

            All the things you want in a president.

        2. The women he has raped are all over the television telling their stories. In the Me Too movement the women must be believed not the man. Conviction? You are out of your mind if you believe what you wrote about Bill.
          You do not have the background to discuss sin in the bible let alone a concept of “degrees of sin.” All sin is judged the same

          1. “All sin is judged the same”

            That’s not what Jesus taught.

            Luke 12:10 New International Version (NIV) 10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

            So we know now that you are not a Bible scholar. And since you were so untrustworthy about the Bible, your claims about Bill Clinton are equally worthless.

          2. “The women he has raped are all over the television telling their
            stories. In the Me Too movement the women must be believed not the man. ”
            – One could say the exact same thing about Trump

            “Conviction? You are out of your mind if you believe what you wrote about
            Bill.”
            – What was he convicted of? If you can’t answer, you are bearing false witness.

            “You do not have the background to discuss sin in the bible let alone a concept of “degrees of sin.” All sin is judged the same”
            – I accept your surrender.

              1. One hallmark of a Conservative is their self-righteousness and their inability to squelch it. You are the best poster child for that trait. “You might want to take a more self-critical look and make sure you’re following Christianity, and not Trumpianity.”

                    1. By the way, Ben has not defined the term in his blog either. It is just a typical series of personal opinions stitched together to incite Progressives.

                  1. “I know what Christianity is.”

                    Your posts indicate the contrary. Prove your claim.

                    Of course, if you do accurately describe Christianity, then you will have proven that you deliberately reject Christ – based on your posts.

                  2. A phantom in the mind of the Trump-deranged Christian left.

                    Like I said before, we don’t *serve* the President. We are obliged to serve *God*. The President is obliged to serve *us*.

                    1. “A phantom in the mind of the Trump-deranged Christian left.”

                      A statement like that serves on your ego, not God, and because the left, more than the right, actually attempts to live Christ’s commands, your post is a rejection of Christ and God.

                  3. No you dont.

                    You committed the same crime that others have followed in following men…like hitler, franco, mussolini.

              2. There’s that haughty spirit of yours coming into play again. You have nothing to support your position except crude dismissal. And when this is pointed out, you act like it is some one else’s problem.

              3. The hallmark of a conservative is their deceit and hypocrisy….

                Just like jesus showed when he confronted them.

          3. Trump bragged about people like you.

            He could shoot someone and you would cheer him on.

            He was quite open about how he’s using you.

          4. Curious: What about the women talking about Trump assaulting them? Should they be believed?

            I’m of the opinion that Bill was horribly in the wrong and deserved his impeachment. Democrats standing behind him was horrible. Unfortunately, as I was not old enough to vote at that point I wasn’t in any position to really have a say.

            1. There are either 19 or 24 women who came forward. The primary reason they did was to derail Trump’s election. In that they failed. If they had a legitimate claim they squandered it in my opinion. Case in point: Jessica Leeds.

              Leeds told the Times that Trump grabbed her breasts and attempted to put his hand up her skirt while she sat beside him on a flight more than 30 years ago. “He was like an octopus,” she said. “His hands were everywhere.” His actions led her to flee from her first class seat to the back of the airplane. “It was an assault,” Leeds said. Four people close to Leeds corroborated her account to the Times.

              On the other hand:
              Jessica Leeds. Claims Trump groped her on an airplane. One person corroborated having heard the story.
              Eyewitness rebuttal: When the story came out — one of the first that did — a man who claimed to have been on the flight alleged that Leeds was the aggressor. The man making that claim, Anthony Gilberthorpe, has a history of making unproven claims, including that he had once regularly provided underage boys to members of Britain’s Parliament for sex parties.

              30 years ago, Four people close to Leeds corroborated her account to the Times, One person corroborated having heard the story, a man who claimed to have been on the flight alleged that Leeds was the aggressor. This does not make me believe Ms. Leeds.

    1. That would involve seeing the truth, and admitting they were wrong. PRIDE is another of their sins…

  60. If President Obama had proposed abolishing due process, the way President Trump has proposed doing at the border, would conservative evangelicals have been either silent or supportive?

    The reason I ask is because I understand conservatism to embrace limited government under the rule of law. Due process is a fundamental part of limiting the power of government and protecting individual rights.

    “The history of liberty has largely been the history of observance of procedural
    safeguards.” — Justice Felix Frankfurter

    So if conservatives still believe in limited government, why do they support Trump when he wants to curb due process and when he issues far more executive orders than Obama?

      1. == Due process at the border is an oxymoron. == Please clarify. Are you saying it’s wrong to provide people with due process in certain parts of the country? If so, in what way is that a conservative view?

        1. Fortunately people don’t have a say in enforcing immigration laws whether conservative or evangelical. Limited government as a concept has nothing to do with border security. Security is one of the governments highest responsibilities. The individual rights you mention do not in general attach to illegal immigrants and also have nothing to do with individual liberty. The issue of whether Due Process attaches just because someone runs across the border is a legal distinction that could be avoided by building the wall. Lacking that rather than hiring 5000 more judges to adjudicate border crossing illegals we could simply pick them up in 5000 buses and drive them back.

          1. Thankfully sanhedrin followed due process when they had jesus executed.

            You arent a christian are you?

          2. So some people on American soil are not entitled to due process, in your opinion.
            It seems to me the core of conservative doctrine is this principle: In America, the only legitimate power is a limited power. I agree with that principle, but I’m not sure you do, since you are willing to give the chief executive unchecked authority to detain and expel people.. I also agree with Justice Frankfurter when he said, “The history of liberty has largely been the history of observance of procedural safeguards.”

            I remember that for many decades conservatives warned about the concentration of power in the presidency. They criticized FDR and other Democrats for accumulating too much power. Now conservatives favor removing due process and lodging power only in the chief executive. It seems to me conservatism has changed in the Trump era. Not that I expect you to admit that, since you won’t recognize that Bill Clinton’s adultery was judged far more harshly by evangelicals than is Donald Trump’s. Character used to count.

              1. Is “playboy” the new Christian word for adulterer? Did you replace fornicator with that too? Btw, Trump is as much of a rapist as Clinton, whether or not you like it.

                1. Sorry. You are wrong:

                  “Juanita Broaddrick — birth name Juanita Smith, first married name Juanita Hickey — is an American former nursing home administrator. Wikipedia
                  Born: December 13, 1942 (age 75 years), United States of America
                  Education: Van Buren High School
                  Books: You’d Better Put Some Ice on That: How I Survived Being Raped by Bill Clinton”

                  Let’s see your accuser?

                    1. Your huffpost cite is is silly. That is why we call it fake news. You can’t even summarize the story in the line you posted. “She has a witness.” Who may we ask is she? Who is the witness.

                    2. So you didn’t read it, or you read it but you can’t refute it, nor will you bother to look up the many other articles about it (because they can’t ALL be fake news, now can they?) Either way, it’s part of the public record, she has filed a lawsuit against him- twice. She withdrew the lawsuit because she was receiving death threats from- guess who?- Trump henchmen. And yes, she has a witness, who saw Trump rape her when she was 13 years old. Btw, he was still married at this time, so you can definitely count this as adultery in addition to statutory rape. No amount of false Christianity wipes away the rape of a 13 year old by a grown man. He belongs in prison, but you idiots can’t bear to accept the mistake that you made supporting him so you just keep pushing on through with your heads in the sand.

                      https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/02/donald-trump-rape-lawsuit-13-year-old-cancels-public-event

                      https://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/donald-trump-rape-lawsuit-dropped-230770

                      Now, at what point in time did the word playboy replace adulterer in christian circles? Cite your sources.

                    3. If any of this were true it would be news and it’s not.
                      Trump threatened her? This is really way out there.
                      Why don’t you make a citizen’s arrest.

                    4. So obviously you have no real response, just deflect, deflect. Your reading comprehension, or lack thereof, is as Trump would say “Sad!” I feel sorry for folks like you. But not that sorry.

                    5. You have no common sense. Deflect what? An article that has no substance; written entirely for the purpose of stopping the Trump campaign; that did not work. If any of it were slightly true it would be out there in the mainstream Fake News Media 24/7. But it’s not. Try to reason why it is not in the press and you might figure it out. The Media, the Elite and the Democrats hate Trump more than you do and they haven’t picked this up. Why? Think!

                      Wild eyed unabated and irrational hatred of President Trump is called Trump derangement syndrome.You are a prime example. To criticize us on the right based on our complete support for the President is another symptom of this disease you exhibit. I’d say start drinking and stay inebriated for the next six years because you have it bad.

                    6. It is irrational to hate someone based on the second hand information you choose to accept while disdaining anything said to the contrary.

                    7. My views are well known in Ben’s blogs: political and biblical. I hate abortion and I hate people who support it in any form.
                      As far as the #MeToo movement I agree that men are the sexual predators; many politicians seem to fall into this category.

                      Your question is not for me to answer. Your hatred of our President appears to me to be mostly political reinforced with the news reports of his sexual history. Maxine Waters is the democrat poster child for this kind of behavior.

                    8. “Your question is not for me to answer.”

                      Please! Someone! Help!!
                      This man is missing his vertebrae!!

                      But in all seriousness Donald supports the discrimination against trans people (my kind) in healthcare, so I don’t hate him just because he’s a sexual predator, but because he compromises the continued wellbeing of people like me.

                      https://www.advocate.com/transgender/2018/4/22/trump-allow-anti-trans-discrimination-health-care
                      https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/21/us/politics/trump-transgender-health-care.html
                      https://rewire.news/article/2018/04/25/health-care-access-hard-trans-people-like-trump-trying-make-harder/
                      https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/04/22/donald-trump-trans-healthcare-bill-rule-lawsuit/

                    9. Ok. So you also hate him because the healthcare laws discriminate against your “kind.”
                      Is this about the taxpayer paying for gender reassignment surgery? Or something else.

                    10. It would be absolutely wonderful if taxpayers funded surgery, buuuuuuuuut… no.

                      I’m talking about hospitals being able to deny service because we’re trans, stuff like health checkups, breast cancer screening, prostate exams, cervical exams. stuff that keeps us alive.

                      But I dunno, maybe you enjoy the idea of us dying and going away, considering how much horror trumplings express about GENDER PRONOUNS, our existence must be very troubling to you.

                    11. I doubt that service is any different. How would a hospital even know your sexual identity.
                      You continue to try to provoke with claims that are not legitimate.

                    12. ” How would a hospital even know your sexual identity”
                      Ummm… because I present as female?
                      It’s, uh, pretty obvious I identify as a woman??

                    13. For a hospital to discriminate against a Transgender they would have to
                      know that the person in front of them is a Transgender.

                    14. A lady asking for a prostate exam or a man asking for a cervical exam is pretty obviously trans. Ditto for women and men who still have M or F respectively on their birth certificate, and there are others like myself who are pretty open about being trans.

                      It’s… really… not hard? at all? to understand how hospitals can find out people are trans.

              2. Clinton had an affair with Monica Lewinski. I twice asked about adultery and you twice evaded my question by changing the subject. I guess if I had flipped on whether character counts in the White House, I wouldn’t want to admit it either.

                As far as the topic you keep bringing up, Trump has been accused of sexual assault and harassment by more than a dozen women. Let me guess: You believe all of Clinton’s accusers but not one of Trump’s, right?

                1. Juanita Broaddrick claims she was raped. She is not alone. What was your question about adultery? I said Donald was a NY playboy. He has been married three times. Character is not defined just by marital fidelity.

                  1. “Character is not defined just by marital fidelity.”

                    It’s a pretty good indicator. Throw in a some sexual harassment, some lewd language, some shady business dealings, some lying, some idiotic tweeting often containing bad grammar, misspellings, and childish name calling (all of this from the POTUS no less) and voila! You now have a bona fide low life, low character, thin skinned buffoon guarding the hen house. Not that Cheeto Mussolini does not have any class…. he has lots of class.. all low.

                    1. You have no perspective on life. Equating tweets and character indicates you aren’t serious. Name calling was a deliberate and is a deliberate strategy that worked and got Trump elected. You know what low lifes are as they live in every community. You know what buffoons are I am sure; Trump is neither.

                      As to men and sex you are either woefully ignorant there too or you hope your comments have some impact. They don’t because most on this site agree with you before they even read your posts. What character does Bill Clinton possess? He has lived a life of indulgence and now it shows in his face. As far as President’s go he is the singular and poster child for low moral character.

                    2. Good grief Bob, this is delusional nonsense, My wife read me a quote from a work of fiction that immediately reminded her of Trump and the secret of his success……

                      “the general culture is often stupid or evil and would vote out God in favor of the devil if he fed them back their hate and fear in a way that made them righteous.”

                    3. I don’t think so. You question how Trump got elected? How did Obama get elected? He had no experience in running anything and it showed all through his two terms.

                    4. Because bush jr was so bad.

                      Obama thought he could work with the republicans.

                      He found out what a mistake that was.

                    5. Funny I remember you people going nuts about Clintons immorality.

                      Trump has clinton beat easily on the race to the bottom of humanity.

                    6. 45 has lived a life of indulgence and it shows on his everything. He’s a greedy, narcissist who thinks the rules- any rules- don’t apply to him. As for your opinions on men and sex, of course those are your opinions on it as a man. The rest of us would like a President who can keep it in his pants.

                    7. Obama, obviously, but I’m not claiming partisanship. Anyone who turns a blind eye to a president’s infidelity, adultery, or RAPE because they believe he’s a good president otherwise is part of the problem.

                    8. Obama’s indiscretions will eventually come to light.
                      If you have credible evidence that President Trump raped anyone we would love to see it. You don’t! You just repeat slander like its truth because you want to believe it.

                    9. Obama has done nothing of the sort, because if he had it would have already come to light. He had people digging into every single aspect of his life looking for something to bring up, because they hated him so much. And yet, no affairs, no infidelity, no raping 13 year olds. Just a constant barrage of insults to him and his family. As for proof, see my responses above. It is a matter of public record. Choosing not to believe something doesn’t make it false.

                  2. OK so adultery no longer defines character the way evangelicals once said it did when Ralph Reed insisted “character counts” in the oval office while supporting Clinton’s impeachment. How about truth-telling? Does that count in your definition of character? How about how one treats others? Does that count?

                    1. Your characterizations are askew. What do Evangelicals have to do with politics? Answer nothing more or less than any other group with views. What do Evangelicals have to do with people on this site? Answer they are the objects of hatred because they interpret the bible conservatively not liberally. Do Liberals judge Conservatives falsely – all the time. It’s like blood sport.

                      Truth telling from a public official is not straightforward. You are not the judge of the President’s comments you just think you are. The President tweets to avoid the Fake News filters and you say he is lying based on what you here and how you hear it. But if you have two Lies you’d care to explore I’d love to see them. Here is an example from Obama: If you like you Plan you can keep it; if you like your Doctor you can keep him. This was judged to be the Lie of the Year by the media.

                      You are certainly not the judge of his actions because you don’t even understand them.
                      A good example of treating others is the current faux outrage over immigration which is a manufactured crisis designed to make the President look bad so you think you can judge him.Trump hates brown children so he can go to hell, etc, etc. This is the Left searching for anything to stick to Trump because the are now in a panic over the mid-terms. It is not about the brown children but about democrat return to power. You just don’t get it.

                    2. So you really think Trump cinsistemtly tells the truth? Do you believe him when he claims he never had an affair with Stormy Daniels, to whom he paid $130,000 a few days before the election? Do you think a man who didn’t have have sex would nonetheless pay her to keep quiet about what never happened? It would be paying extortion, right? If you believe the guy you call a playboy.

                    3. You can’t read. I asked you for two Trump lies.
                      Stormy is the best you can do? That’s he said – she said at best. What does Stormy have to do with anything at the end of the day? Nothing really. Whatever he and she did it is none of our business. If people decided not to vote for Trump based on Stormy so be it. Why is this germane to your hate?

                    4. Here’s some bonus lies:
                      * Trump claims he had the biggest inauguration crowd in history.
                      * Trump claims Obama had wiretapped Trump tower during the campaign.
                      * The US has a record high murder rate.

                      You can either dodge, deflect, and blame the “fake news,” or you can admit the obvious about Trump’s casual approach to the truth. My guess is you’ll keep doing the former so you can keep up the belief he is a man of character.

                    5. Here’s an update bonus for you:
                      Trump was “wiretapped” as he said. This whole story has been laid out. Do I have to believe you don’t understand what Obama did?

                    6. You need to keep up. The story is out only you apparently don’t know about it. Just keep watching as the various players are fired, dismissed and referred for criminal investigation.

                    7. Dear God in Heaven. Just because it would please you that that be true, does not make it so!
                      No citation?! Lol, not surprised.

                    8. ok, read slowly:

                      -Sorry, the FISA court REQUIRES to specifically state what the request is based on to be part of that request.

                      -The request HAS to state the above and how it is the basis for
                      the request.

                      -The “Steele Dossier” was requested by and initially funded
                      by THE REPUBLICANS who were then running against Trump in the Primary.

                      -REPUBLICAN Legislators were largely responsible for the House’s
                      investigation and impeachment proceedings of Nixon.

                      -“Watergate” was only partly about the break-in. The
                      so-called Plumber’s Unit and subsequent activities of that group of people were an important part because it showed that there was an entire part of the admin and later of the reelection committee that was devoted to illegally obtaining information on perceived enemies of Nixon and potential enemies of Nixon and the press…and…”

                      -VERY IMPORTANT: The Steele Dossier was
                      a minor part of the FISA court request.

                      -BUT, the most IMPORTANT piece of relevant information is
                      that I asked for a citation of news about TRUMP BEING WIRETAPPED BY OBAMA!!!…Iknow AM radio and Alex Jones may not agree, but NEWS is not an opinion piece… and this would be true even if the op-ed contained actual information not spurious at best and mostly…just completely wrong. Trump stated the Obama Admin wiretapped him (or his microwave did it) in Trump Tower AND NOT as a part of the Russian investigation.
                      The FISA application has been released to the public and is available online. You can DISPROVE the AM radio nonsense on your own, without having me to have to continue to do this for you.

                      If, however, you do not remember what we were discussing,
                      just scroll up a bit.

                    9. The FBI says they did not wiretap Trump Tower. What evudence do you have that the FBI is lying?

                    10. Here is lie #2: “THERE IS NO LONGER A NUCLEAR THREAT FROM NORTH KOREA.” ~ DJT 13 JE. 2018
                      Here is my question: Do you honestly believe that statement is true?
                      □ □

                    11. Yes I do. Why would I not?
                      The self-interest of Kim is to survive and rule not to be destroyed or taken out of power.
                      but if by some chance Kim launches an ICBM with a nuclear tipped war head that detonates over your city then I will stand corrected.

                    12. So you believe that Kim is a rational actor who can be deterred by the threat of nuclear destruction? Didn’t that threat exist prior to Trump being President? If so, how can he claim credit for it, in saying the threat “no longer” exists? BTW, word out of NK today indicates they aren’t ready for complete and permanent denuclearization after all.

                    13. Kim is coherent enough to stay in power.
                      He can only be swayed by threats to his power and control.
                      Trump can have Kim neutralized in many ways without dropping a bomb on him.
                      Each President has had his turn at bat; now Trump is up but it is the bottom of the 9th.
                      The problem with Liberals is that they would rather see Trump fail than let Trump get credit for solving this problem.
                      Liberals are just about finished due to the Progressives. #WalkAway.

                    14. Bob, are you really so cynical that you assume I would rather have a nuclear armed NK than see Trump succeed? Unlike conservatives who refused to give Obama any credit, I believe in giving credit where it’s due. Can you agree that Trump’s proclamation about the NK nuclear threat being over was just a tad premature?

                      In other words, he hasn’t yet achieved the disarmamemt. When and if he does achieve it, however, I promise to praise him on this forum. Fair enough?

                      Speaking of fairness, can you name 3 Obama achievments? (Actual achievements, not negative things like fooling a majority of voters in 2 elections)

                    15. ” US intelligence officials told reporters at ABC News on Friday that North Korea has continued to make fuel for nuclear bombs despite a claimed suspension of testing.

                      “Thanks to private satellite imagery, independent weapons analysts have also been able to confirm that North Korea is expanding test sites—not destroying them. Non-proliferation analysts at the Middlebury Institute of International Studies have tracked on-going work at factories that will make rocket engines for nuclear-tipped missiles that could reach the United States.”
                      https://www.google.com/amp/s/qz.com/1320300/donald-trump-didnt-stop-north-koreas-nuclear-threat-satellite-imagery-shows/amp/

                    16. You are hardly in a position to make that statement. Even so experts disagree. #WalkAway

                      If North Korea is denuclearizing, why is it expanding a nuclear research center?
                      Satellite photos show work continuing at a North Korean nuclear research center, and experts disagree on whether it means the regime is not denuclearizing.
                      by Ken Dilanian and Courtney Kube / Jun.27.2018 / 1:23 PM ET

                    17. You asked for two examples; I am doing one at a time. I asked if you believed Trump’s denials re Stormy, and you chose not to answer my question. Could it be because you suspect he is lying but don’t want to admit it?

                    18. Bill Clinton denies raping Juanita Broderick. I assume you have no opinion about that either, right? After all, how would you know who is lyimg?

                    19. I think I would be embarrassed to be Bill Clinton on the personal side. He did, however, govern more in the Center; a lesson Obama failed to learn. The women who accuse Bill Clinton are all on record with details and substance. Do you deny Clinton is a serial sexual pervert?

                    20. I don’t expect certainty. But we all deal in probabilities. Except you when it comes to Trump

                    21. Another Liberal trait: disparage the character of a person whom they dislike based on probability when they are setting the odds. This is why Progressives are done for the next two election cycles: #WalkAway

          1. “I am a Christian and a conservative in that order. By education I am an engineer, a lawyer and a bible student.”

            Well, your posts prove that you are not a Christian, and no one can be a conservative and a Christian at the same time. Your posts also do not demonstrate the level of education necessary to be either an engineer, or a lawyer. Anyone with either educational background would know that it is pointless to make such claims, for a variety of reasons, the least of them being – you cannot prove those claims on the internet, particularly with what is technically an anonymous id.

            And your posts demonstrate either an extreme ignorance about the Bible, or deliberate disobedience against the rules and principles it teaches.

          2. It’s perplexing that you claim to be a lawyer when you make comments on the law that are provably untrue. The due process clauses of the fifth and fourteenth amendment, as the courts have repeatedly held, apply to persons, not only citizens.This has extended to immigration proceedings at the border and otherwise, as immigrants are persons regardless of their legal status. [Link, PDF] Which is surprising to absolutely nobody who is aware of the bedrock position that due process plays in guaranteeing a rule of law.

            Lying about the law as a lawyer is a pretty big professional no-no, and it is implausible that a lawyer at the bar would ever make such a basic error. So, “lawyer by education”, what do you mean by that? Vanity degree? Non-accredited institution? One pre-law night class at a local community college?

            1. You who accuse me of lying when we disagree are disingenuous to say the least.
              Perhaps you should go to the border as an advocate and lecture the Border Patrol on the rights of the illegal immigrants who are flooding our border. All I said was, “Due Process at the border is an oxymoron.”
              Others have said:
              “And Fordham law professor Jennifer Gordon said that some undocumented immigrants get almost no due process in removal proceedings.
              “In 1996, Congress created expedited removal for undocumented immigrants without a hearing. Initially it only applied at the U.S. border. Then it was expanded to within 100 miles of a border for undocumented immigrants who had been in the country less than 14 days.”
              “President Donald Trump announced in January that his administration will apply the program anywhere in the United States to undocumented immigrants present less than two years.”

              i proudly received my JD from a certificate inside a box of Cheerios. From your comment I see you have no discernible legal training at all.

              1. Well, I accused you of exaggerating your credentials. It is reasonable to call a mistruth an intentional one when no other plausible explanation remains, such as when you claim a professional credential and then subsequently act in a way contrary to the strictures of that credential in a manner that suggests you do not hold the requisite training and knowledge to have the credential in the first place.

                Fordham law professor Jennifer Gordon said that some undocumented immigrants get almost no due process in removal proceedings.

                The word in bold above is a biggie. And expedited removal, while being a mockery of due process (which is what she was actually pointing out) is still predicated on the bedrock legal notion that judicial process is due anyone coming under the punitive power of the US government.

                1. Expedited Removal:
                  “A 1996 statute permits immigration authorities to deport people without a hearing, a lawyer or a right of appeal under certain conditions, a process known as expedited removal. Under current policy, the Department of Homeland Security criteria for expedited removals apply to undocumented migrants found within 100 miles of the border and within 14 days of entering the country. The statute imposes no geographic limit and allows for expedited removals up to two years after a migrant has entered the country, raising the possibility that the Trump administration may use this power more aggressively.”
                  Your interpretation of my original comment is suspect.

              2. Lol….a lawyer whose looking for obamas birth certificate.

                You’d have to be f***ed in the head to have you as a lawyer.

              3. Hello.
                I’ve been reading 3lemenope all the way to here.
                He hates, ridicules and mocks anyone who even professes to be a Christian and considers all Christians to be ignorant fools.
                You do know that by this time today your seed of the Lords has been planted and you can move on to the next.
                It would be best to ignore 3lem and move on.
                You’re welcome to go to my profile and answer me somewhere else, you would probably like ‘ Calling all Christians ‘ it’s great forum.
                And nasty people are not allowed to stay there very long, if you happen to be followed, which has happened to me a couple of times.
                Take care, Bob.

          3. Given your understandng of the bible and christianity doesnt say much about your skills as a lawyer/engineer.

      2. The problem with saying these people do not deserve due process? What happens once this thinking is enshrined in legal thought, becomes normalized, and they then decide that another group also does not deserve due process? Then another, etc.

        And if you think the removal of human rights will just stop with this one circumstance, this one group, you have not been paying attention. Or are woefully ill-informed about human nature. We have rules and standards for a reason. Not to be killjoys but because otherwise some people would never rise to a minimal standard of decency. This includes our leaders.

        Answer this… Without due process, what would stop ICE from grabbing anyone and claiming they are illegal? Including YOU! You say you can PROVE you are legal? Without due process who do you ‘prove’ it to? Where will you show your proof?

        Remember, the law that created ICE gives them the right to interrogate or arrest anyone within ONE HUNDRED MILES of a border, including the sea-shore. Since that means anywhere that someone can enter the country. Including places like Buffalo, Cleveland, and Chicago. Also any airport that accepts international flights. This covers almost ALL of the United States, nowhere in the US would be safe any longer.

        So many of you are inclined to think that unmitigated power and authority will only simplify things, and will only be used ever in ways they approve of, and things will never go sideways. The blood of millions upon millions in the last 100 years alone screams otherwise.

        If you deny anyone due process,
        you deny everyone due process.
        At that point we’re all undocumented immigrants.
        Because if you can’t show your documents to a judge,
        your passport is as useless as your blockbuster card.
        Being identified as a suspect automatically becomes the same as being guilty.

        1. Completely over the top for sure.
          Because their feet touch our shore does not mean they are entitled to due process; It just means our system is broken and needs repaired. Activist judges will be weeded out.
          Instead of worrying about ICE you might worry about the senior management of the FBI and DOJ planting a spy in your midst to try and get you in trouble without proper judicial overview.

      1. But tjey won’t admit emplying a partisan double standard. I’d have more respect for those who could admit it instead of pretending they are being objective.

  61. Here’s my question? Have you sat down to talk directly with anyone who voted for Trump? Do you know them by name? Do you know their story? You direct your arguments to “conservatives” assuming they all believe in the way you have generalized them to be boxing them all into your perceived trunk of “Trumpians.”

    Christ was unique because he took the time to listen to people’s story. He saw them. Not their labels, what faction of Judaism they belonged to, He just saw them.

    We should all try that instead of turning around and self-righteously judging and generalizing a whole group of people that you don’t even know. You may know a few, but does that now constitute an expert knowledge of all conservatives? It’s quite laughable actually.

    I suppose my response is thank God He is the judge of all. I don’t have to answer to you or you to me, nor do the so-called “Trumpians” as you have arbitrarily labeled them, but we both along with those Christ died for, will ONLY have to answer to Him. Again, thank God for that.

    1. I have relatives who voted for Trump, but they certainly don’t go out of their way to defend everything Trump does. They keep their faith and politics separate… and even they can admit that some of the stuff Trump did pretty much goes against Jesus’s teachings. Of course, they do turn it around by saying that everyone’s a sinner, and that god gets to be the one who judges us all in the end. Many of them seem to regret voting for trump just to “shake up things”… but they don’t really like losing face so they say that all the presidential candidates were pretty shit this time around, so we would’ve “lost” no matter what.

    2. Have you sat down to talk directly with anyone who voted for Trump?

      Certainly. Some of us are even closely related to some of them. Some of us are even closely related to people who not only voted for Trump (which the article does not address), but who continue to support him.

      Christ was unique because he took the time to listen to people’s story.

      Nothing in Corey’s essay above indicates that he hasn’t heard their story. He’s making a statement about their values as expressed by their actions. When Jesus saw someone whose values as expressed by their actions were out of whack, He called them out on it — sometimes with blistering invective (see Matthew 23, directed at religious leaders who ought to have known better than to act the way they were acting, even as they prioritized practicing the tenets of their faith that had been delivered to them by God Himself).

      We should all try that instead of turning around and self-righteously judging and generalizing a whole group of people that you don’t even know.

      … says the person who doesn’t even know whether or not Corey knows people who support Trump, making vast generalizations and judgments while doing so. For example:

      You may know a few, but does that now constitute an expert knowledge of all conservatives?

      Here, we see a vast generalization that an expert knowledge of “all conservatives” is needed to make statements about what it means to support Trump, as if all conservatives support Trump — combined with a fact-free judgment that Corey’s essay must be the result of the kind of paltry understanding that comes from only knowing a few conservatives.

      I don’t have to answer to you or you to me, nor do the so-called “Trumpians” as you have arbitrarily labeled them, but we both along with those Christ died for, will ONLY have to answer to Him.

      Yet, you seem to think that Corey should answer to you and your questions, or perhaps at least that a reader of the comments should answer to those things; it’s hard to think of another reason why you’d post them. Interesting, that.

      Now, what kind of answer would one give Christ for practicing hypocrisy?

      1. I don’t think Corey should answer to me as I made plainly clear in my post. Am I incorrect that God is the only one that can read the heart and judge by the heart alone? I think not since scripture declares it to be so. It is a logical fallacy to assume that anyone who voted for Trump or who may support the President think and believe as Corey purports. That is a generalization. In order to make such statements one must be able speak to all conservatives, it’s called evidence, facts and statistics. None here is shown. I am not making any accusations. Yet you, in your own passive aggressive way, decided to pass judgment and accuse me of hypocrisy. I’m saying, lets listen to one another without the spirit of criticism. Understanding is what leads to reconciliation. Christ himself sat, ate and socialized with tax-collectors, who were representatives of an oppressive government and who used their government position to lie, cheat and steal from their own people. Pretty deplorable. The community deemed these tax collectors to be morally debased and rightfully so. Christ sat with them, ate with them and even asked one of them to follow Him and did it without a screening, criticism or self-righteousness. His example tells us – All are welcome and all are valued. That’s all I’m saying. Before we label others, lets remember that God already deems them welcome and valued.

        1. Christ also declared those who oppressed others as outside the kingdom of god. He villified their policies which created inequality and division.

          He was executed for a reason.

          Has anyone accused you of not being an american yet?

        2. Repentance is a thing, you know.

          It is entirely different from proudly continuing to lie, cheat and steal while claiming “only God can judge me.”

      1. That’s an assumption. How do you know my motive in asking questions? Be careful what you presume to know, my friend. Honest conversation is what allows us all to understand each other better. The more we generalize, the more we arrogantly presume and that only leads to further division.

    3. Quite strangely, Javier Gonzalez upvoted his own post. I have not yet figured out how to do that. Whatupp, Patheos?
      Huh! Tried it, and it worked! Well, I will never again have to suffer the indignity of having no up votes on one of my posts!

    4. Oh, baloney. Jesus saw a woman who asked for healing, and because she wasn’t an Israelite, he refused. He even refused until she literally compared herself to a dog eating crumbs from “the King’s” table.

      Jesus was a fucking bigot.

  62. here’s back at ya Ben the progressive “Christian”….you sound like a scowling, angry, embittered trogg spewing contemptuous hatred for America, men, God, guns…. a hostile, hate-filled face, tainted by envy, corruption, mendacity, with full-blown anti-American sentiments…you have thrown open the doors to your diseased inner sanctum, baring your storehouse of wilted values and stunted counterfeit virtues. Your a degenerate, mouth-breathing troglodyte who has the intellectual agility of a sea slug with Down’s syndrome….a tragic figure spewing flimflam, humbuggery and polly-foggery as a steady diatribe.…a dried-up simpleton worthy of pity and prayer. In your hallucinatory world you will probably find sympathetic souls, those who will only prolong your delusions. But alas, in the end your just a person of the creative self…simple, double minded, void of any intellectual curiosity, unstable in all you do.

    1. Go on, hate Democrats or progressives. But don’t make Down’s Syndrome sufferers objects of your toxicity.

    2. Nice slander. It really demonstrates how conservatives deliberately reject Christ and Christ’s commands, in order to feed their egos.

      1. But it happens to be true. I know drippy Christianists don’t like the truth shoved under their uplifted little noses, but sometimes you dirtbags need to know things.

    3. The hate you seek is nowhere in Dr. Corey’s thoughtful commentary. You’ll have to direct your hate-seeking skills elsewhere.

    4. You’re so upset, James. So angry, so bitter, so hostile.

      Is it that time of the month? Pamprin has helped THOUSANDS.

    5. in little ben’s postmodern philosophical world, truth is simply a social construct, with no further importance. he and his sjw followers think they can make this truth claim and it cannot be rebutted. booo hooo

  63. Your post is on point. The interesting thing is how these positions can be turned around. Let’s take #1. I know so many people who back in the 90’s were defending Clinton and saying we weren’t electing a pastor but now have an issue with Trump. If we all were not so ideological (ideology is our new religion) we’d all point out how both Clinton and Trump were wrong.

    1. Uh… Its not unnatural or even hypocritical (as you seem to imply) for someone to have no problem with Clinton, yet have a problem with Trump, because, you know, there’s normal everyday common sin and standard “stupid presidential decisions” and then there’s…cartoon villain-like super-evil. Praise of dictators. Open calls for shutting down the free press / any press that is even slightly critical of him…Setting up what looks like the beginnings of actual-factual concentration camps and enacting policy to tear children from their parents. Standard lying about sexytime pales in comparison. Clinton was wrong and should be held to it, however… there’s apples to oranges.

      1. Fine, but Clinton was still wrong and should have left quietly after his term was over. The Clintons were only too happy to run against Barack Obama with an “only I can fix it” attitude. I agree that there is no comparison, or that the equivalence is false, but let’s face it, the bald-faced idiocy being shown by those attacking the special prosecutor is not all that far from people still unable to admit that Clinton abused women.

  64. Of the “10 signs” of “Trumpianity” written above, conservative-leaning commentators may wish to note that none of them include “voting for Donald Trump”.
    #10 would not include a Trump voter who didn’t try to make the President above criticism from his opponents because the President is Donald Trump.
    #9 would not include a Trump voter who disagreed that Trump’s immigration policy was in fact against the Bible, but didn’t suddenly decide that obeying the law was more important than obeying the Bible because the law was now being determined by Donald Trump.
    #8 would not include a Trump voter who didn’t think nationalism was a tenet of the Christian religion
    #7 would not include a Trump voter who believed Trump when he said in his campaign he was against military intervention, was disheartened not cheering when he said ” knock the crap ” out of a protestor and considered military intervention an unfortunate last resort, not an occasion for rejoicing.
    #6 would not include a Trump voter who held their nose and voted for him because the alternative was somehow worse
    #5 would not include a Trump voter who doesn’t agree with the protest but doesn’t think a flag is a religious icon and recognises a right to protest.
    #4 would not include a Trump voter who doesn’t think secular laws should mandate religious positions and worries that state welfare provisions never properly work
    #3 would not include a Trump voter who sympathises with refugees and would like to help but worries about border security
    #2 would not include a Trump voter who thinks Trump was actually picked by voters as no more than the better choice of the options available
    #1 would not include a Trump voter who would very much have preferred a candidate with a decent character, but thought the other worse and made the best if a bad job.
    I don’t think Ben is saying simply voting Republican, or Trump, is the same as “Trumpianity” but the way a lot of particularly evangelical Christians literally idolise Trump goes way, way further than just plumping for him as the best bet for a political office.
    NB – For the avoidance of doubt, I am not American, and like most of the rest of the world think he is truly horrible and the American people were stark staring bonkers to pick him as president (a view Ben no doubt shares) but I don’t think (and I don’t think Ben does) that everybody involved in this hideous mistake has necessarily abandoned their Christianity as well.

    1. Well put, Iain. I was disgusted by his primary campaign, and voted for Kasich. But he has done a lot of good things so I am pleased that he has outperformed the negative predictions many had about him.

      1. I would agree Trump has outperformed the negative predictions about him, in the sense that no-one thought he would be this bad. I am wondering what parallel universe you are living in that you perceive this as a president doing well.

        1. All his appointments have been good other than Bannon and Tillerson and they’re gone now. All of the problems and “scandals” of his Presidency haven’t been any worse than other recent Presidents, certainly not as bad as Obama’s problems. He has set the economy on a stronger course and has rolled back many burdensome regulations. All my opinions, natch, but i’m not really a parallel universe seeing that he has 48% approval rating currently.

          1. Are you out of your FUCKING MIND? Pruitt? DeVos? Zinke? PERRY?

            You ARE out of your fucking mind. Oh, that’s right–Trumpanzees don’t have MINDS, just this little pinkish thing dangling Down There, that they use as a gauge.
            |
            You must think that CRIMINAL is COMPETENT. Go back to noshing on Trump’s Urine Popsicle.

            1. This response is a typical example of the incivility which dominates those who are emotionally animated but otherwise vacant of arguments. Those suffering from Trump derangement seem almost incapable of avoiding potty language, even on a Christian website. It does little to convince those of different opinions, and has led to the #WalkAway campaign. If you haven’t heard of the #WalkAway campaign yet, check it out. It is a movement out of the democrat party as a direct result of behavior and language like yours. These people are embarrassed more by you than they are by Trump, and I agree with them.

          2. How do you figure that any of his appointments have been good? The entire Cabinet is made up of people who made it their career to destroy the very thing they are now in charge of–one of the more shining examples is DeVos–and his SCOTUS pick was considered too racist for the Federal bench in the 80’s. The only reason his scandals and incompetence don’t seem abysmal to you is that they are so numerous that no single one either stands out or even gets fully reported. They just come too thick and fast for news coverage to really lay any of them fully bare. The economy has slowed in the upward trajectory Obama left it in. Finally, we have lost all respect we still had in the eyes of the rest of the world. Thanks to the Angry Orange, America will probably never be great again.

              1. By all means, point out where any of it is wrong. If my opinions are unfounded, yours are at least as much so, as we offered the same amount of supporting evidence. Edit: I mentioned DeVos’s career specifically, which is trivially easy to look up. Therefore, my opinion currently stands as the more founded and substantial of the two.

                1. Wrong? No one seriously questioned Judge Gorsuch’s qualifications because he was above reproach. Racist is simply a democrat/progressive slur. Your opinion is noted and filed in the trashcan.

          3. There is hope. Thanks to the person who mentioned #WalkAway:
            Thread: I decided to #WalkAway as a former Obama supporter after realizing how dangerous the Democratic Party is. Open borders. High taxes. Socialism. Sucking up to Islamic terrorists. Taking away our guns. The LLM (Lying Liberal Media), Sanctuary cities. GENDER PRONOUNS…
            I was a Democratic activist for 15 years, but the 2016 election opened my eyes. I don’t recognize the party anymore. It is corrupt and hostile to independent thinkers; its leaders are divisive and hypocritical. It advances no ideas or serious policy, just hostility. #WalkAway
            A Democrat would give the shirt off my back and the money in my pocket to an illegal immigrant – which is one of the MANY reasons why I chose to #WalkAway
            Voted for Bill Clinton, Al Gore, John Kerry, and Obama. My eyes were opened once I found out the real frauds that the Democrat party had become. None of them ever delivered any promise ever made. Until Trump came along … the rest is history. #WalkAway #MAGA2020

      2. My mother, an immigrant from Italy at the age of 12, told me that that the people in her town thought Mussolini did a “lot of good things.”

  65. People
    can interpret their holy book to mean virtually anything, and the next
    person can interpret an opposite meaning from the first. I agree that it
    is very difficult to label Trump as any form of Christian, despite the
    support he gets from evangelicals. But there’s more to their hypocrisy
    than the obvious. Evangelicals seem to hold support for Trump for 1 or 2
    main reasons (mostly pro-life view on abortion). They will spin their
    other religious views as needed, but so do other Christians.

    Biblical
    teachings of immigrants is a case in point. When the US was just
    forming, different denominations of Christians were at war with each
    other leading to exclusion from various parts of the 13 colonies. Also,
    “no such thing as patriotic worship? You’d better not say that to a
    person from an Islamic country. Islam is the state religion ***and***
    the government. Jesus said love our enemies, yet he fashioned a vicious
    whip to attack the moneylenders, and God commanded a boatload of
    genocidal attacks. Trump’s chant of MAGA is full of holes, yes. (When
    exactly was America great? 1950s when there were no civil rights? 1850s
    when a civil war was upon it? 1750s when there was slavery?) However,
    the cry to return to biblical values is also fraught with problems.
    Which values? Where women are inferior to men? Where it was ok to
    slaughter a neighboring tribe? Where the rules said kill unruly
    children? When slavery was condoned? When polygamy was ok?

  66. . . We’re on the cusp of a civil war in which the Left side of the spectrum wants to DESTROY, kill, assassinate, injure, impeach . . . yada yada this president who was lawfully elected, a man without a police record, with a business background. And THIS CHRISTIAN JOURNAL wants to get behind attacking this Chief Executive? What ever happened to your sense of Rule of Law and Fair Play? Is what you are saying that you PREFER the Clinton criminal mafia and its money-laundering, pay-to-play, child trafficking and charity fraud??? . . . https://youtu.be/hZlYOK1RMk8

    1. You seem to have forgotten how your mob treated obama.

      But hey if you want to worship an adulterer because his words tickle your ears thats your problem.

      Those of us with more sense arent swayed by such bs.

      You wont win a civil war without killing over half of the US.

  67. USING corporate, alternative, institutional CONTACTS to BYPASS the governing process is the form of SEDITION that Rich People get into. AFFILIATED CHAINS of COMMAND WITH DEEP POCKETS twist, alter, objectify, discard AND WORK AROUND THE GOVERNING PROCESS. This needs to stop BRIBERY money BUYS influence. Let’s fix this. https://youtu.be/hlCceigGiRY

  68. Ugh… I just spent 10 minutes scrolling through the comment section here. I need a shower.

    Serious question for Mr. Corey – What did you hope to accomplish by writing this and do you think you accomplished it? Was it more than an exercise in catharsis? I really get the desire to write something like this, but I’m not sure it brings out anyone’s better angels.

    1. And there you were posting from gay hating sites and claiming they had nothing against gays.

      Why do you people think anyone gives a f### about what you think when you consistently and deliberately lie.

      1. SamHamilton has already been called out for his tactics of obfuscation, derailment, deception and false witness, bullying, and then lying in attempt to deny his well-documented behaviors. His response is to just lie and deny, lie and deny. Just watch:

  69. This feels relevant: https://www.npr.org/2016/10/23/498890836/poll-white-evangelicals-have-warmed-to-politicians-who-commit-immoral-acts

    No group has shifted their position more dramatically than white evangelical Protestants. More than seven in ten (72%) white evangelical Protestants say an elected official can behave ethically even if they have committed transgressions in their personal life—a 42-point jump from 2011, when only 30 % of white evangelical Protestants said the same.

    1. Equating personal transgressions as relevant to political life depends on the transgression. Men and sex is something that will never change. People judge for themselves on these things. Why? Because they want politicians who can solve their problems. Progressive social issues do not resonate with most Americans. Don’t believe me watch the supposed Blue Wave fail to materialize and you will see this proved but you will still not nnderstand.

      1. >’Men and sex is something that will never change.’

        And so you’re 100% A-OK with men having sex with men and everything from legalized gay marriage to laws against discrimination that hurts gay men… right?

        God, the hipocracy is so thick. President Donald Trump appears on the cover of Playboy magazine, brags about cheating on his wives, gets linked to abortions promoted among his mistresses, et cetera. That’s all apparently fine because sexual morality rules only apply when it’s convenient.

        1. The comment is a follow up to calling Trump a NY playboy in his youth. It refers to Trump’s three marriages.
          The Progressive Left is besotted with sex and sexual innuendo and everything sex. One wonders when they time for anything else. The Left and Liberals are baby killers because it is a convenient birth control. As to why the Left and Liberals think they are superior to others and should dictate to us on the Right about morals- I say look in the mirror.

  70. He sure does assume a lot doesn’t he. I would certainly like to sit down and speak to him about all of this. Then I would have him to explain who he would suggest I vote for. Trump has certainly been the most Christian president of my lifetime. I’ll be about as clear as I can be about this but there is nothing in the democratic platform that has anything to do with God. As a matter of fact they had to vote him back into the platform which was quite embarrassing. During the founding of this country that would’ve made them anti-American.
    None of us can be responsible for all the leaders actions and there should be grace for all of it but there is certainly nothing in the democratic platform that has anything to do with Christianity. Jesus never ordained the government to help the poor. it was always the individuals that had love attached to it and not a cold check in the mail that creates sluggards.
    So yeah many of us had comfort and had to cling to Romans 13 else we would have been worse during the Obummer admin. ?

    1. Trump has been the most Christian president of your lifetime? How old are you? Also, where does any part of the Constitution call for the President to be a Christian?

      1. Yes he has…atleast his policies and judicial picks. Im 49. Documents of such brilliance and equality come from nowhere else than the Bible and Christians. The constitution doesnt say anyone has to be a Christian but the wording drives towards that bent and most of the founding fathers certainly were.
        The Declaration of Independence, the most famous document produced by the Continental Congress during the War for Independence, proclaims: “We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” As well, this text references “the laws of nature and of nature’s God” and closes by “appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world” and noting the signers’ “reliance on the protection of divine Providence.” The Founders’ use of Christian rhetoric and arguments becomes even more evident if one looks at other statements of colonial rights and concerns such as the Suffolk Resolves, the Declaration of Rights, and the Declaration of the Causes and Necessity of Taking up Arms—to say nothing of the dozen explicitly Christian calls for prayer, fasting, and thanksgiving issued by the Continental and Confederation Congresses

        1. Derpy the founding fathers were deists.

          Notice how your ‘brilliant’ and ‘equal’ documents were used against blacks and native Americans.

          The supreme judge of the world is mightily pissed with people like yourself.

        2. God is not the property of Christianity. God existed long before, and will exist long after. The Creator they are referring to is, btw, not Jesus. So no, you cannot claim Christianity. Some of the founding fathers were Christian, some were Deists, and some were definitely Christians in name only. However, none of that proves that 45 is somehow “the most Christian President” of your time. That is a ridiculous and outrageous claim. I think you might want to brush up on what Christianity actually is, not what Trump is selling.

        3. For the record, the author of the Declaration of Independence (this Christian themed document lol) was Thomas Jefferson, an undisputed deist. He even created his own bible by snipping away sections of the Christian Bible he considered to be unreliable. Benjamin Franklin was a deist as well.

          “We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.”

          Except for enslaved black people.

          “As well, this text references ‘the laws of nature and of nature’s God’ and closes by ‘appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world’ and noting the signers’ ‘reliance on the protection of divine Providence.’”

          There is nothing distinctively Christian at all in such generic terms as “God” or “Supreme Judge” or “Providence” (which was a common way Washington referred to God as well). Any religion with a belief in God could use those terms. And that was kinda the point.

          Today’s conservative evangelicals would find the views held by many of the founding fathers as abhorrent. Progressives are criticized for being too tolerant, yet George Washington himself was tolerant of other views (Jewish, Muslim, atheists, etc).

          John Adams was a Unitarian who some allege did not believe in the deity of Christ. James Madison, who seemed to be a deist as well and the chief author of the constitution, was a fierce proponent of the separation of church and state.

          By the way, I’m a Christian, but I think it’s important to be factual. Peace

    2. Can you tell me — specifically — what of the 10 items listed in this post you disagree with and why you disagree?

  71. I am very sadly impressed with the way so many people commenting on this article are so clearly illustrating the faux christian points the author makes. Perhaps a little less defensiveness and a little more prayerful thought might make those people sound more rational and less hate filled.

    1. Obama never went after Christians, or had anti Christian policies. What he did – or tried to do – was to prevent Christians from forcing their views on anyone else..

    2. You guys were too busy crying because you couldnt bash gay people anymore.

      Btw there are those of us who criticised bush and obama for their foreign policies.

      But trump is off limits to his disciples.

    3. Where do you get this propagandist drivel? Facebook? Fox? Try Putin. Our nation,democracy and even Christianity is under threat. Please open your eyes…

  72. After being away i thought i’d come back to see if trump supporters are still deluded.

    Yep.

    What we have here folks is a new religion.

  73. Re. #10: You might recall the “Pray for the President” bumper stickers that popped up after 9/11 — and clearly referring to George W Bush. We had some conservative neighbors who had those stickers on all their cars. But right after Obama was elected, those stickers mysteriously and quickly disappeared. Obama must have been truly amazing if he didn’t need the nation’s prayers.

    Not surprisingly, these same cars later sported Tea Party symbols and slogans, pious calls to prayer replaced with calls for “Hillary for Prison.”

  74. I love the extreme disconnect. A *single* Democratic representative wears a shirt that says “I (and I is a key word here) don’t believe in borders.” Response: THe DEMOcratS ARE CALLing FOR OPEN BORDERS!!!!!. 19 women can claim that Trump touched them inappropriately, walked into a room where they were naked, sexually assaulted them, and at least one credible claim of rape, with a witness to verify it. Response: FAKE NEWS FAKE NEWS FAKE NEWS WHY DO YOU HATE TRUMP MAGA FAKE NEWS!!!!1!!

    Trump lovers will be burying their faces in shame in a very short time, but we will remember who you are.

    1. Also they seem to lack the self awareness to realize that when they try and talk about Bill Clinton as a distraction, they are using the same standards of evidence that we do when talking about Donald being accused of sexual assault. I mean, yes, we know that Bill is a sexual predator… but that doesn’t make Donald… not…? a sexual predator…?
      Nor does it erase the fact that they voted for him while remaining willfully ignorant of the claims of sexual assault against him.

      1. It really is astonishing, isn’t it? “Bill Clinton is a sexual predator” as a statement in absolutely no logical way leads to “Therefore, being a sexual predator is a fine thing.” And yet that’s the twisted ‘logic’ that happens.

    2. Democrats have no leadership and the party is split by the Progressives: Open Borders, Raise Taxes, Impeach the President will not get democrats re-elected.

    3. Extreme disconnect? This President has been under investigation by a special counsel Muller. Muller has looked at 1.5 million documents we are told. The NY Times reported Muller has looked at the Stormy claims. You want us to believe Muller missed the rape of a 13 year old with a witness?

      1. We don’t know if that has been pulled into the investigation, yet. You should go read the depositions taken for the incident you mention. The 3 girls involved, now all adults, are pretty credible. The stories match and the even the 18 yo girl who was tasked with bringing the children into the orgy gave the same story. It’s a shame that death threats and greed forced them all to back off and go underground.

        1. I should read the depositions? Law enforcement should act if there has been a crime. Such an allegation would not be ignored. If the media can get itself into a frenzy over Stormy imagine what they would do if this were credible? So it’s not.

          1. You cannot force these woman to risk their lives, and the lives of their family and friends. They apparently felt threatened enough to assume a new life and try to live with their trauma. Without their cooperation and testimony, the case is dead in the water.

            1. Case from 1994. Lisa Bloom their attorney paid money to women willing to accuse Trump of sexual crimes . Case brought before election, June 20, to try and damage Trump campaign. Strategy failed.

              “On 15 December 2017, The Hill, a web site devoted to Capitol Hill news and commentary, posted an article reporting that prominent Los Angeles-based women’s rights attorney Lisa Bloom had offered money to women who were considering going public with accusations against President Donald Trump regarding sexual harassment and assault:”

    4. The single democrat talks for the DNC and thus for you.
      “The deputy chairman of the Democratic National Committee wore a T-shirt which urged opposition to national borders around the United States, as he walked in a May Day parade in Minneapolis, Minn.”
      Soon “you” will be marganilized into the dust bin of history: #WalkAway

      1. Nope.

        You really are deluded if you think the democrat party (the party which actually got more votes) will be consigned to history.

        You could say the same about the republicans once trump has finished using it as his personal plaything.

        1. I have a life as I escaped the abortion doctor the Liberals sent after me.
          So I use part of it to educate the Liberals on this site like you. #WalkAway

          1. So you are angry that you were almost aborted and now wish to be a troll on intellectual Christian sites that have nothing to do with…?!!!!

            1. This site is not an “intellectual Christian site(s).” It is a place for people of like misguided minds to support each other in lawlessness; abortion and deviant sex being two of the biggest examples. Intellectuals do not resort to grade school tantrums, invective and boorish behavior to debate.

  75. I don’t understand what has caused the mass exodus of the Right from anything resembling Christianity. For the past decade the Right has clung increasingly more tightly to the Christian label while shedding any pretense of living by Christian precepts. Try having a biblical discussion with a conservative and you’ll quickly release they have absolutely no knowledge of the Bible they profess to follow. Is seems the Conservative concept of Christianity is to worship Jesus as an icon while ignoring any of his teachings.

    1. As crazy as this may seem, I believe much of the steady drift, admittedly over time, continues to stem from a dogmatically inerrant view of scripture taught in pulpits around the country to thousands of parishioners in conservative settings.

      Many believe, and are taught, that following “the Bible” is synonymous with following Jesus. This means that the teachings of Jesus are viewed in the same light as anything else recorded in the Bible, including the OT instructions to commit genocide. To them, Jesus (as a part of the Trinity) ordered the slaughter of the Canaanites in the OT, as well as said love your enemies in the NT. So instead of looking at these events/instructions in contradiction to one another, they instead try to make them both fit, which allows their worldview to be easily manipulated to condone unloving actions against others not in their tribe. Their Christian worldview has room for biblical instructions that seem counter to Jesus’ teachings. But that’s ok because it’s in “the Bible.”

    2. You are so right. Right-wing winged Christianity has become a cult,twisted and stretched to fit the inclusive,wealth – worshipping, racist agenda many of them follow.A belief system that Jesus would not condone according to His teachings.

    3. They’ve always used Christianity as cover for conservatism. Why, though, I don’t understand either. Maybe they think it gives them more weight?

    4. What caused the mass exodus of the right from their Christian values? Two words: Fox. News.

      Mystery solved.

  76. Wow! You went on in on this one. Did you know the word evangelical is not even in the Bible, but now all these people who curse and did pray for Obama are all of sudden powerful people of prayer. Girl or Boy Bye. Also how can you possibly agree on politics before doctrine. But it’s suppose to be God – Okay!

      1. You mean the ones who claim he was anointed by God? The simple fact is that Evangelicals who support Trump are hypocrites. Every single lily white one of them. Andif there really was a God, he would hate every single one of their hypocritical asses to Hell.

          1. Not in the least. I’m backed up by voter demographics. The overwhelming majority of Trump supporters in the evangelical community were and are white; although, to be fair, since many of them are from the south, it’s difficult to know how many of them may have some black ancestry way back when, and ancestors who passed for white as a result.

        1. I concur. I was INSIDE American Evangelicalism from 1978 to 1986.

          I was even a Worship Leader … ’cause I had a nice singing voice, and looked good in a long swirly white dress, banging my tambourine and raising my pretty (well … back THEN ;->) hands in the air!

          There is NOTHING holy about them. They started out nice, but then I realized what they REALLY worship is … Male Supremacy, and making life as difficult for WOMEN as possible.

          Unless the woman is “submitted”. “Submitted Women” are victims of emotional and doctrinal slavery.

          1. Evangelical Christians are the American equivalent of the Taliban and Muslim extremists. They should all be taxed to the hilt and disbanded if possible. Their way of life is abhorrent.

            1. no to taxing religions, that’d give them a valid voice in government as a united group. christofascist talibangelicals are a problem though.

  77. In a recent Atlantic magazine essay, Michael Gerson described the damage white evangelical support for Trump has done to both the nation and the church — here’s a link and a powerful quote from it below …

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/04/the-last-temptation/554066/

    “Democracy is not merely a set of procedures. It has a moral structure. The values we celebrate or stigmatize eventually influence the character of our people and polity. Democracy does not insist on perfect virtue from its leaders. But there is a set of values that lends authority to power: empathy, honesty, integrity, and self-restraint. And the legitimation of cruelty, prejudice, falsehood, and corruption is the kind of thing, one would think, that religious people were born to oppose, not bless. This disfigurement of evangelical faith squanders the reputation of something valuable…. At its best, faith is the overflow of gratitude, the attempt to live as if we are loved, the fragile hope for something better on the other side of pain and death. And this feather of grace weighs more in the balance than any political gain.” (Michael Gerson)

    1. In short, Gerson seems to be observing that the Christian right has chosen its own path to destruction. It’s almost like watching Macbeth in a way. The protagonist, through fears about possible future outcomes, winds up fulfilling prophecy through ill action.

    2. Powerful quote? Moral Structure? Here are the attributes of the Left which ruins everything it touches: Abortion, Open Borders, Confrontation, Socialism, Grace as License to Sin. Without Evangelicals this country would already be hell on earth.

      1. So Jesus was a Republican?? actually he was much closer to being a socialist — free healing/health care for all, the rich give up all they have for the poor, etc. The article was an evangelical’s prophetic call for evangelicals to return to the faith they once graced and blessed America with — and can do again only if they abandon their false political idols …

        1. I’m convinced Jesus couldn’t be elected in the U.S. because of opposition from the conservative evangelicals.

    3. Look its no different when evangelicals cheered bush into iraq.

      These people will never acknowledge they are wrong.

  78. Despite the flipflops Corey listed, I have yet to find an evangelical Trump supporter who admits doing a flipflop since Bill Clinton was in the White House. Either they have conveniently forgotten when they insisted that “character counts,” or they don’t want to admit it.

  79. Thank you, Ben. You are a positive prophetic voice in every Biblical sense. Your message needs to be heard loud and clear. The moral and theological inconsistency of Evangelical America is a stunning phenomenon to watch. American Evangelicalism has lost all credibility as a Christian expression. I never thought I would see this unfolding so quickly and so dramatically.

    1. Prophets are sent by God to warn the people. Exactly who is Ben warning? The people reading this blog? What is the warning? That the American Evangelicals are calling out the Progressive Liberals?

      1. No Bob, Steve means white evangelicals like you are worshiping false political idols — get some sleep, willya?

        1. Sorry. White/Black is just another Progressive construct aimed at dividing the country. There is no White/Black issue in this country. That era is over and we need to get past it. If I had to judge between Evangelicals or Progressives I would look at their works not their words. Baby killers would not do well.

          1. SHAME ON YOU, Bob — 1) Jesus is NOT a Republican … 2) destructive and FALSE words like yours above are hurting the church in America …

            1. I’m still in shock over, “There is no White/Black issue in this country. That era is over and we need to get past it.”

                1. So do you have a problem with specifically “Black power” Bob, or just people of color in general sharing power in our democracy? — because Jesus was a person of color too …

                  1. I have a problem with Progressives calling anyone who they oppose “Racist” and with Progressives who enslave Blacks by telling them they cannot compete and need help to survive trying to preserve a permanent underclass.

                    1. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and looks like a duck, chances are it’s a f***ing duck.

                      In the Trump world, it’s a lobster.

                    2. “I have a problem with Progressives calling anyone who they oppose ‘Racist’. “

                      They don’t. But they might to someone who makes racist statements.

                1. White guilt and Black power are the two sides of the same issue. There is no problem in this country. It is shamelessly promoted by Black Power brokers like Sharpton and Jackson and Booker for personal gain.

                  1. SHAME ON YOU, Bob — speaking as a pastor, let every non-Christian reading this understand that Bob Shiloh’s opinions belong only to a latently racist fringe element of American Christianity.

                    1. See, “Racist” is the tag line of true Progressive who cannot debate the facts. This label is used to prevent White people from speaking out about the horrible job Progressives have done in the large cities they control. Well guess what, that tag is for you!

            2. The Church in America has hurt itself with its slow slide into lawlessness. You can see it on this site displayed vividly. Trying to use the NT and Jesus to influence politics is counter productive since there is no agreement here on what the bible says/means to begin with/from. Extrapolating from confusion generates more confusion.

              What did Jesus say about politics: Obey the authorities because God put them in place and pay your Taxes. He did not say try to resist/undermine government because you don’t like certain policies.

                  1. Too bad we can’t understand and apply the Bible without our God-given human reasoning, Bob …

                    1. God said it best:
                      Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
                      Look at the comments on this site if you want to see the fulfillment of that scripture.

                    1. Yes you have. Only the Catholic Church includes commandment keeping. All the Protestant churches
                      believe saved by faith through Grace and the commandments have been nailed to the cross. And I doubt
                      you go to any church?

                    2. “Only the Catholic Church includes commandment keeping.”

                      Which commandments do the Catholics keep?

                      “All the Protestant churches believe saved by faith through Grace…”

                      Well, most use Paul’s letters to build a theology on, so if that’s your point I would agree.”

                      “ And I doubt you go to any church?“

                      Lol. And you would be wrong.

                    3. I have often said that evangelicals preach strong grace to get you in, but then strap on duty and commandment keeping soon afterwards … 🙁

                    4. So progressive Catholics and conservative Catholics obey a different set of commandments?

                    5. No. Progressive Catholics tend not to obey the commandments they don’t like just like Progressive Christians. They also go around preaching that it is ok because, because…. Conservative Catholics don’t really do any better they just have guilt over their indiscretions and hide their disobedience.

                    6. Lol! You are so transparent. You don’t give a rip about being considerate of my business. Just today you claim I don’t believe in following the commandments but you apparently do. So I ask which ones you follow. We all know why you don’t answer. You backed yourself into a corner because you lofted yourself up while tearing others down. You got called on the carpet so now you dodge.

                      How considerate of my feelings in saying you won’t ask me the same question. Like you even give a crap. This coming from the guy who has spent his day judging me as one who doesn’t go to church (I do), says I believe that grace is a license to sin (I don’t), and that I don’t accept the OT because I may believe differently as you. Good grief.

              1. “The Church in America has hurt itself with its slow slide into lawlessness.”

                I disagree. The church in America has hurt itself with its failure to live by Jesus’ greatest commandment- to love God and neighbor. The Pharisees preached that Israel had hurt itself by sliding into lawlessness as well. Their solution was rigid Torah obedience to curry God’s favor believing that would restore the nation. Jesus sharply rebuked such thinking by instead preaching mercy, not sacrifice; preaching love for even enemies, compassion, forgiveness, peace, humility.

                1. Israel failed to keep God’s commandments and were ultimately rejected by God. Their history from that point forward is illustrative. Grace is not license to sin. That is the result of your analysis of Jesus and sin is the reason we are in the state we are.

                  1. Earlier you wrote, “the commandments have been nailed to the cross,” and now you’re saying Israel was rejected for not keeping them — which is it, Bob?

                  2. “Israel failed to keep God’s commandments and were ultimately rejected by God”

                    Specifically which commandments did they fail to keep?

                    1. “The Sabbath”

                      Geez, that’s what the Pharisees kept accusing Jesus of. Did you study under Shammai? Is this one of the commandments you and the Catholics keep? Does this mean my catholic neighbor can no longer mow his yard on Saturday?

                    2. You don’t seem to comprehend. The Sabbath is the seventh day of the week. Israel changed the day.
                      How you “keep” it is distinct from whether you recognize it. Christianity does not recognize the Sabbath. This they freely admit by the way. The Protestants defer that question.

                    3. “The Sabbath is the seventh day of the week. Israel changed the day.”

                      That is just a straight out falsehood.

                      Mind you I didn’t have high expectations….and you didn’t disappoint.

                    4. So you think God rejected Israel cause they changed the day of the Sabbath?

                    5. Not me. You can read all about it in the OT (you know the book you don’t accept).

                      Exodus 16:28 “How long ye refuse to keep my commands and instructions.”
                      Jeremiah 3:8 “I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery.

                      It’s really not complicated. Sin has consequences except in the mind of Progressives.

                    6. Wow Bob, you must have breakfasted on barbed wire today. You’re very cheery this morning. First you say you doubt I go to any church (I’ve attended regularly for 5 decades without interruption, and served in leadership for 3 decades, not that any of that is any sort of redeeming quality of mine). Then you claim I believe that grace is a license to sin (I don’t recall ever claiming such a thing), then you claim I don’t accept the OT (I’m not even sure what that means other than that’s your way of articulating that I may interpret certain passages differently than you).
                      At any rate, since you keep insisting that you keep the commandments and us pathetic progressive Protestants do not, I’m still waiting on you to tell us which commandments do you and the Catholics keep that we don’t?

                    7. The doubt was based on your many answers over time.
                      You may not believe that you approach Grace that way but I am sure you do.
                      If you say you believe in the OT I would accept that but I think your belief is qualified isn’t it?
                      Pathetic Progressive Protestants (PPP). I love that! Catholics are bound by their religion to keep the commandments. Protestants are not based on their concept of Grace and Works.

                    8. “Catholics are bound by their religion to keep the commandments”

                      Which ones?

                    9. This comment shows you don’t know the OT. You are just parroting a comment from another who does not understand the OT. 613 indeed!. Catholics are taught to keep their 10 Commandments not 613. Catholics are supposedly the first Christians coming straight from the crucifixion. Protestants came out of the Catholics. I don’r remember the Bull having 613 Commandments did it now?

                      The bible is the Word of God in written form. It is Spirit and Truth; part history; part prophecy and all about the Plan of God for Man. Without the bible no one would know anything about anything. The OT and the NT are seamless and together tell us everything.

                      But you know that – you just don’t believe it because like all Liberals you know better than God. Good Luck.

                    10. Bob,
                      C’mon, really?

                      You say, “This comment shows you don’t know the OT” later followed by, “OT and the NT are seamless and together tell us everything. But you know that – you just don’t believe it…”

                      So which is it?

                      Here’s the thing. You come on here spouting biblical platitudes and assertions that most everyone on here is intimantly familiar with and have heard probably no less than a million times. You also say patently untrue stuff like there are no black/white issues in this country and then when challenged you blow it off as some liberal tactic.

                      Likewise, when challenged on your biblical assertions you dig in your heels and retort with assigning pejorative labels with things like those ignorant “liberals” and “ progressives” and “Democrats” and “Protestants” and “leftists” and on and on. That’s apparently your only defense when someone offers information that might cause you to think or that brings tension to your entrenched dogma that most of the rest of us have already grappled with.

                      Btw, Catholics are not taught to obey the 10 commandments. They mow their yards on Saturdays just like the Protestants.

                    11. Biblical platitudes – instantly familiar with? Hardly. Most on this site are biblical illiterates. All you have to do is read the comments. Most have grappled with? Who are you kidding? I notice you have no problem reading and responding to my comments. I would say of all the replies I see a handful that have actually studied the bible and mostly those who spout other’s nonsense like it is fact. When challenged they never respond with facts. Why? Because Liberals don’t deal in fact only emotion. “All we need is Love.” That is your mantra isn’t it?

                      Black/White issues – made up by the Left to sow unrest in this country. Yes. Just look at the debacle in the NFL and ask yourself how a group of millionaire men can be swayed to disrespect the country that gives them their wealth and for what? There is no reason for that behavior except to promote the Left’s agenda of discord. It suits the Left’s purpose to have the NFL players on display and treated as “victims.” No one believes NFL players are victims of anything except for Progressives and the Liberal Sheep that it controls. The Left have destroyed or made worse everything they touch and this is just the latest example.

                      Last, you obviously missed a good Catholic education and don’rt understand their religion at all. Any Catholic grade schooler can recite the Ten Commandments at will unlike you or most on this site. You are ignorant of Catholic beliefs as well. The Catholic Church changed the day of worship from the Sabbath to Sunday on its own authority and all the Christian churches that flowed from it (including yours) followed suit. Why is it that you worship on Sunday? You don’t know – you just do! Try reading “Rome’s Challenge: Why Do Protestants Keep Sunday?” and you will then understand why your comment about mowing a lawn is ignorant and shows your lack of understanding this very basic issue. Try defending your church’s decision to worship on Sunday from the bible. You can’t and no one ever has. It is a man made change telling God to accept it. Guess what He doesn’t have to does He?

                    12. “Because Liberals don’t deal in fact only emotion. “

                      I guess that makes you a liberal then.

                      “Try defending your church’s decision to worship on Sunday from the bible. You can’t and no one ever has. “

                      I don’t try, nor do I claim it’s biblical. That’s precisely why the Catholics do not teach (biblically speaking) to obey the commandments. Thanks for proving my point. Like you don’t present new information. Everybody knows the change from Saturday to Sunday is man made. That goes for Protestants and Catholics. Btw, Sunday is often conflated with Sabbath keeping. Sunday is the Christian day of worship. The Jewish Sabbath is not presented on the same terms to Israelites as Sunday’s are to Christians.

                    13. You’re forgetting the sin we progressives (and the Bible and Jesus) keep a sharp focus on, Bob — failure to love our neighbors as ourselves (refugees, the poor, victims of power and privilege, etc)

                    14. You keep forgetting what God is going to say to Progressives, Matthew 7:21-23 I Never Knew You.
                      21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

                    15. Nah, Bob’s admitted in another thread that blacks are stupid.

                      And Bob doesn’t realise those verses actually apply to him who sold his soul to a false messiah.

      2. Hopefully Ben’s words and likeminded dedicated Christians will continue to speak prophetically until they are heard. There is no longer a Christian division between Evangelicals (“conservatives)” and “liberals”. These terms have now been rendered meaningless in the American religious reality. All Christians must fight the evil if this dangerous American civil religion just as the Hebrew prophets denounced the corrupt religious systems of their day in preparation for Jesus announcing the arrival of the Kingdom of God – a reality that current American Evangelicalism does not understand or practice. The warnings to American Evangelicalism are clear in Scripture. It’s leaders, instead, choose to abuse Scripture. That’s the reality.

        1. “All Christians must fight the evil if this dangerous American civil religion just as the Hebrew prophets denounced the corrupt religious systems of their day in preparation for Jesus announcing the arrival of the Kingdom of God – a reality that current American Evangelicalism does not understand or practice.”

          I believe this to be SO true. The Evangelical conservative agenda and their support for Trump is eerily similar to the state of affairs admonished by Jesus in first century Judaism.

          The wealthy Sadducees, in league with governmental authorities (Rome), exercised both religious and civil (Sanhedrin) authority over common Jews. The Pharisees influenced rank and file Jews throughout Palestine within synagogues (local assemblies) by preaching rigid Torah obedience in the hopes of currying favor with God to hasten the establishment of their version of God’s kingdom. The result of these actions resulted in exclusion of the “sinners” and “outcasts.” The onerous demands from the religious authorities (which extended to civil matters) left them feeling isolated, abandoned, and hopeless.

          And then came Jesus to show us the heart of God preaching the law of love to welcome in these “sinners” and “outcasts”, who he said would actually enter the kingdom before the religious authorities. And instead of these religious authorities heeding the warnings that God desired mercy (not sacrifice), they instead dug in their heels by using the govt (Rome) to silence Jesus’ message of love, all the while believing God was on their side.

          Masses of evangelicals today have no clue about the underlying events in Jesus’ day because the gospel message in America has been crafted over centuries, passed down from generation to generation. And it’s rarely, if ever, framed from a historical context, but rather has been molded over time filtered through a contemporary western lens.

          A friend of mine, as a conservative even, once admitted that the American church, of all biblical characters, most resembles the Pharisees. Fortunately he recognized it. Most don’t. They genuinely believe, as the Pharisees did, that God approves of their message, mindset, theology, and doctrine.

          If anyone needs proof, all they need to do is read through the comment sections on many of these blogs. Go preach Jesus and you’ll get pushback from conservative biblicists. Instead of filtering all the Bible through Jesus’ words and actions, they instead filter Jesus through the rest of the Bible. In other words, many think they’re actually worshipping God when instead they’re worshipping the Bible. They don’t see the difference.

  80. So now that Trump is doing his best to destroy US alliances and not defend countries in Europe which may be attacked (because Putin), does that mean my country won’t be sending any of my family to fight America’s shitty wars eg my uncle in Vietnam and nephew in Afghanistan?

    Oh and you can p*ss your bases off from my country too if you’re not going to help defend it.

  81. The supposedly righteous Left who savagely murders almost 2000 babies 24/7, 201,650 this year alone and sells their body parts to the highest bidder. and has murdered over 60 million babies since Roe vs Wade. The righteous Left who voted for a Muslim president who mocks God and praises Allah, The righteous Left who supports a president who allowed perverted men into women’s restrooms. The righteous Left who denied God in their 2012 DNC 3 times. The righteous left who took God out of our schools and allowed the 5 Pillars of Islam to be taught in our schools. The righteous Left who supports LGBT lifestyles and are now promoting paedophilia. I could go on but it would fill a book. I believe you Godless liberal loons might get the picture but I doubt it.

        1. Accusing the LGBT community and politically left individuals (including myself) of supporting pedophilia, when we actually oppose it; accusing Obama of mocking the god he believes in and of allowing men into women’s washrooms.

          I cannot and will not forgive libels like that.

          1. In fact all you have to do is google LGBT and paedophelia and you get “scientists” saying paedophelia is just like being “born” gay or straight.

            All are born straight and it is sin through external circumstances which turn people into other sexual desires

            1. Pedophiles — who can be of any sexual orientation — are committing a crime by violating the rights of other individuals when they act on their desires. An adult LGBT couple in a consensual relationship is not violating anyone else’s rights.

              And no, people are not all “born straight.” That is ridiculous.

              1. Yes but some LGBT “scientists” are saying paedophelia is something you are “born with” so his statement is partially correct.

                People are definitely born straight. Science proves this. This is why 99% of people are straight. But we know the LGBT activitists want to reduce this percentage hence they confuse school children and some are trying the gay thang!

                1. Could you kindly link me to a peer-reviewed medical journal that supports the claim “People are definitely born straight”? (I have access to a medical library, so kindly provide the citation in standard form with title, author, journal, year of publication, etc.)

          2. Well certainly Obama mocks God and the the whole transgender thing is evil and does allow men to use womens bathroom. That is LGBT to a core!

            1. A transgender person who mentally identifies as female *is* female, as far as I am concerned.

              I really don’t care what genitalia the person in the next bathroom stall has, as I am not in the habit of peeking under walls.

              1. No that female has a mental illness and should be treated as such and healed.

                People are born male or female. There are no other combinations.

                Your comment about genitalia shows you have no argument

                1. Yes there are… some people are born with physical attributes of both sexes. Your comment, “people are born male or female” is patently false.

                2. Are you a registered psychologist or psychiatrist? If not, I gently suggest that you do not attempt to diagnose a mental illness. Even a registered therapist would want to meet an individual in a clinical setting before diagnosing them.

      1. Astreja, may I direct you to the 5th Commandment “Thou shalt not kill”. The Godless, baby killing, socialistic, communistic, Islamic Democrat Party has supported Abortion since Roe vs Wade in 1973. Obama did mock God and the Bible and has praised Allah on numerous occasions. Obama even had an Islamic prayer room set up in the White House for him and his Islamic appointees to have prayers on Fridays. Obama stopped having Christian prayers at the White House. Research the 2012 DNC and watch the video. They denied God three times. Do your own research if you don’t believe me on the. As a Christian I don’t lie and everything I wrote is the absolute truth. Sto being in denial and research the truth and stop listening to the fake news media. If you don’t believe my statistics on abortion research abortion in America in 2017 and you’ll find the truth. Note: Just because our evil government passed the 14th Amendment to legalize abortions does not mean God approves. All babies are created by God the moment it is conceived because God allowed for it to be conceived. Period. Jeremiah 1:5 ESV “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you. God Bless you!

        1. I see your 5th Commandment and raise you Matthew 25:35-40.

          What are you doing to support women who can’t leave their jobs to raise children? Do you support food banks, low-cost housing, daycare and medical services, and a living wage?

          At very least, are you prepared to subsidize good-quality birth control for women who can’t afford it, preventing abortions by preventing unwanted pregnancies? I do.

    1. I had hoped, foolishly I know, that I would not see ignorance like this again on these boards. Read and weep yourself….

      “The supposedly righteous Left who savagely murders almost 2000 babies 24/7, 201,650 this year alone and sells their body parts to the highest bidder. and has murdered over 60 million babies since Roe vs Wade.”

      When Roe vs Wade became law, the vote in the Supreme court was 7 to 2. Of those 7, 5 were appointed by Republicans, so no, it was not the “Savage Left” who implemented it. You mentioned Google somewhere else…. Well use Google to educate yourself about the “selling of body parts to the highest bidder.” You seem to think this is a normal practice… that just ain’t so.

      “The righteous Left who voted for a Muslim president who mocks God and praises Allah, The righteous Left who supports a president who allowed perverted men into women’s restrooms.”

      Good grief… President Obama was not a Muslim. He was and remains a high character, decent family man, a Christian married and devoted to one woman, quite unlike the serial adulterer/sexual predator who currently inhabits the white house. As far as restrooms, those “perverts” have been in your restrooms all along. Get over it.

      “The righteous Left who denied God in their 2012 DNC 3 times.”

      Again, use Google and try to understand what really happened. It was not as bad as all that.

      “The righteous left who took God out of our schools and allowed the 5 Pillars of Islam to be taught in our schools.”

      My goodness, when and where was God taken out of our schools, as if He could be. Do you mean to tell me your little children cannot pray in school? Our society is secular. Our government is democratic, not theocratic. Schools have to educate all the little children, the Christians, the Muslims, the heathens, the Hindus, the Buddhists, the atheists, and so on. Our society is very diverse. All kinds of religion are talked about in our schools, so is evolution. You want to live in a theocratic society? Then convert to Islam and move to the middle east, or start your own.

      “The righteous Left who supports LGBT lifestyles and are now promoting paedophilia.”

      There is no such thing as an LBGT “lifestyle”. Is your heterosexual orientation a lifestyle? When did you choose to be straight? Every reputable medical institution I can name now agrees, homosexuality occurs naturally and is immutable. Every gay reparative institution that ever existed is now closed in recognition of that fact. Sure, we do not yet know the causes, there may be multiple, that does not mean one day we won’t know. In the meantime these people deserve to be treated as equals in our society. Promoting paedophilia? Really? Where do you get this stuff? There is no link… none, between homosexuality and paedophilia. They are not even close to the same thing. The only people promoting paedophilia might be the Catholic church.

      Somehow, I feel your ignorance could fill a book, but I will still offer some well-intentioned advice. Educate yourself… wherever you are getting these ideas, whether it be your friends, your family, your pastor, Breibart, Focus on the Family, Faux News, Family Research Council, et al, try to broaden your knowledge. These institutions are biased, and yes, there can be bias on the other side too. Don’t settle for what your tickling ears want to hear. You might find that you are more calm and less fearful…. or you can simply choose to remain ignorant.

      1. Your ignorant reply proves you need to educate yourself, Questioning. Where I find my information is far more reliable and trustworthy than the alphabet fake news you rely upon. The truth isn’t in them or you. All of you are habitual liars. You couldn’t see the truth if it smacked you in the face. You are so ignorant you still can’t comprehend 8 years of Muslim Obama’s lies, corruption and multiple acts of treason or the 30+ years of the Clinton crime family’s lies, corruption, and money laundering scheme through their Clinton Foundation. Plus, Hillary destroying over 30 thousands emails to cover up her treasonous acts. I bet you voted for Obama, not once but twice, and “Killery” Hillary? President Trump’s election was a massive movement to stop the lying, corrupt, Godless, Communist, Islamic Democrat Party from destroying America’s great Republic. If Hillary had won she would have completed Muslim Obama’s job of turning America into a Sharia Law compliant oligarchy. To quote Forrest Gump: “Stupid is as stupid does” and you and your drug induced brain dead liberal cohorts fit that description!!!!!!

  82. Why are people wasting their time with Bob Shilo?

    It’s clear that trumpism is a cult.

    And you can’t reason with cultists.

    Bob’s trolling and doesn’t give a shit what you think.

    1. “Why are people wasting their time with Bob Shilo?”

      The only explanation I can come up with is that we are Masochists = Those who willingly subject themselves to unpleasant or trying experiences.

  83. Looking at some of these comments, I’m amazed at the verbal and mental gymnastics some “Christians” will go to so they don’t have to love their neighbors as Jesus commanded them. Why not just admit you don’t want to help anyone, and that you’re in it for yourself, and be done with it?

    This is why Christianity is dying.

    1. Christians do more to help people than our government. Christians help people in need but don’t give them a life line to never succeed that’s passed down to generations. Socialism via governments destroys people’s initiative to help themselves. They become dependent on the government to take away from those who produce and give it to people who don’t. Soon the producers quit producing! Total Marxism! Why can’t you people learn from history? Socialism has always been a complete failure and will continue to fail. Venezuela is a perfect example.

    2. Sadly, this pastor concurs — “By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another” (John 13:35) — implying everyone will know we are NOT disciples if we fail to love each other …

  84. What a rubbish article. This man is so far left his irrational hatred fro Trump blinds him to truth

      1. I’m not scared of illegals, I’m sick of the illegal invasion, dolt! What don’t you understand about the concept of people coming to America legally? No other nation in the world would tolerate what Americans have to endure with you ignorant people. Common sense and logic elude you!!!!!

        1. “I’m not scared of illegals,”
          – Yeah, sure

          “I’m sick of the illegal invasion, dolt!”
          – Illegal immigration is currently at a historic low, dolt!

          “What
          don’t you understand about the concept of people coming to America
          legally?”
          – Oh I understand the situation fine, For decades American capitalists have been welcoming people from the southern nations on temporary work visas as a cheap source of labor. Then Saint Ronald of Reagan ended the program on the pretense of preserving jobs for Americans, jobs like field labor and ditch digging which Americans did not want. It was conservatives who created this “crisis.”

          “No other nation in the world would tolerate what Americans have
          to endure with you ignorant people.”
          – You claim to be a Christian. Let’s see what your Bible says about welcoming foreigners.
          https://www.openbible.info/topics/welcoming_strangers
          Wow. it looks like you are ignorant of the Bible you claim to revere as a Christian

          “Common sense and logic elude
          you!!!!!”
          – If saying that makes you feel like a brave widdle Christian, then you just go ahead.

          1. David, you are too stupid to waste my time trying to educate you on the truth. But here it goes for the last time:1) No, immigration isn’t at an all time low. It’s on the rise again. Obama cut our border patrols in half and thousands more illegals were coming across our borders undetected. 2) Don’t blame Reagan. He wanted to close the border but Democrats didn’t want him to. So they promised Reagan they would close the border if he would give the present illegals amnesty. After Reagan left office Democrats reneged on their promise. https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128303672 3) Christians are commanded by God to help the needy and most Christians do. However, that doesn’t mean our government should allow wide open uncontrolled illegal immigration. Our government is in place to protect us and provide security for our nation. How can we have a sovereign nation with wide open borders? What’s going to eventually happen? Do you have a clue? Do you suggest we always have open borders indefinitely and never close them? How can America support the whole world, dumb ass!!!! 4) Capitalism made America the greatest nation in the world. Any one who supports socialism is totally ignorant of how socialism hasn’t ever worked and has always been a complete failure. I stand by my previous comment: “Common sense and logic elude you!!!!!”

            1. You are repeating propaganda lies. Obama deported more people to Mexico than any other President. The borders are not OPEN, duh! I saw growers cutting down orchards in New Mexico because the workers could not get through to pick the apples.

              Reagan’s amnesty worked out great. No problem. Whether the border was closed afterward is irrelevant, because giving all those people amnestry and a path to citizenship was good for them and good for the country.

              YOU are not good for the country. Racists and anyone who’d vote for an Orange Fuhrer are NOT good for the country.

            2. 1) Wrong https://immigrationforum.org/article/trump-claims-border-crisis-amid-46-year-low-crossings/
              2) Wrong http://www.ontheissues.org/Celeb/Ronald_Reagan_Immigration.htm
              3) Once again, we see conservatives promoting the false dichotomy of draconian border control or open borders. A person who relies on false dichotomies to make a point has no business throwing insults at other people’s intelligence.

              4) The greatness of America is largely a matter of perspective. The people of Scandinavia would be very surprised to hear that socialism “doesn’t work.”

              And I stand by my previous statement, if parroting the party line and indulging in petty insults makes you feel brave, powerful and Christian, go right ahead. Just try and understand that there are people outside of your bubble who are laughing at you.

                1. Apparently your attention span will not permit you to learn anything more complicated than a meme.

                  Maybe someday you’ll be able to get the help you desperately need for that.

                2. Venezuela? LOL… YOU Republicans wish to make the U$A like Putin’s gangster-capitalist Russia. That’s what you think “freedom” means…

                  You really have no business being in this country. You have no grasp of any of our founding concepts. You’re a bigot. You support every negative tendency you can find.

                  Really, shut up about Venezuela and buy a ticket to Moscow.

        2. In fact you’re enduring NOTHING! This is all bigotry, stirred up by Faux News, et al. Illegal immigrants contribute to this country, in total, with their cheap labor diligently performed, more work than YOU could ever do.

          Me, I’m a fast fruit picker. You? You’d faint.

          YOU are the problem with this country, not the illegal immigrants coming here out of desperation, fleeing situations largely created by U$A govt and corporate policies… oh but that’s far too much analytical thinking for you.

    1. Is your name supposed to mean “sanity”? The word is “sanidad”, though it does not exactly correspond to its English cognate in meaning.

      I suppose it is not necessary that I point out the humor in your use of that title.

  85. He most definitely has been obnoxious at times! I don’t worship him or defend a leader’s lack of tact. However, what Jesus taught about violence and enemy love is not what the culture teaches to deflect wrongdoing and evade personal responsibility.

  86. The worst ‘article’ I’ve read in a LONG time. Had a good laugh tho, but probably not in the way Ben intended.

  87. 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 (NIV)

    9) “The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie,

    10) and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

    11) For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie

    12) and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.”

    TЯ卐mp is the “lawless one” … the Beast, and those who support, condone, or defend him wear the Mark of the Beast
    because they have:

    • chosen allegiance to the Beast instead of Christ.
    • chosen to believe the Beast instead of Christ.
    • chosen to follow the Beast instead of Christ.
    • chosen to obey the Beast instead of Christ.
    • chosen to worship the Beast instead of Christ!
    • chosen to accept the Beast’s LIES instead of Christ’s Truth!

    If it’s not already too late, I urge each and every Christian, especially Evangelicals, who still support TЯ卐mp, to immediately renounce the Beast and repent! Return now to your Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

  88. Wow. This one certainly evoked a LOT of responses. My reaction- personally I’m completely sick and tired of Christians and their political nonsense. They are so very ready to believe the worst of any Democrat with no more proof than “it was posted on Facebook”. Ugh. Priorities are so completely screwed up. Like the old Wendy’s commercials with the little old lady who asked “Where’s the beef?” I want to know “Where’s the love?” This ridiculous political mindset reveals nothing more than a distressing lack of faith AND love. Let’s post something nasty on social media about a Democrat and watch all the Christians make complete idiots out of themselves!! And I was a conservative republican until I saw the incredible hypocrisy. The world is laughing at us. Priorities, people!! They will know we are Christians by our love, not our political affiliation, idiotically judgmental attitudes, fear of liberals and certainly not by believing everything that gets posted on stinking Facebook. Please read The Myth of a Christian Nation by Gregory Boyd, and quit being so incredibly gullible and judgmental. By the way, great article!!

    1. Perhaps. But it is normal to take sides.
      France is not laughing they are to busy dealing with riots as Macron “tried” to institute a democrat inspired Global Warming tax.
      North Korea is not laughing. Kim is trying to survive and de-nuke at the same time while the media melt down because Democrats were not able to bring Kim to the table.
      60 million Americans, Christian and non-christian, disagree with your analysis of why they voted against Democrats. Democrats want religion completely out of government except when it comes to all things Trump. Then it’s ok to apply Christian principles to criticize the Trump government.
      This was a terrible, partisan article which is why it received so many comments. Ben is predictable.

      1. Bob, there is an old phrase that is something like “Doth protest too much” or I think this article hit home with you but you’re unwilling to admit your own failures.

        1. Perhaps. But that is not what this blog does. It is simply partisan fodder designed to inflame the base. The President’s personal religious beliefs are personal just like any other citizen. He will be remembered for what he accomplishes while in office. Look at it this way. Other than his style what do we remember about Obama – nothing. Because he accomplished nothing of substance. But you think him great despite that unimpressive eight years of identity politics and push towards socialism that we now see in sharp focus. While you delight in any way to criticize Trump because of irrational hatred, this President has done more in two years to make America great again than any other modern President.

      2. Well said…for instance, the subject of immigrants…how we have treated them for years had much to do with numbers…the hordes coming into our country are an entirely different problem…also, the quality of the individual who emigrated…they went to work, found housing and forthe most part were good citizens…we have a problem now that we have never, ever had before…and the idiot O-Cortez saying it is a concentration camp?? I know some occupants of concentration camp who would welcome our kind of treatment at the border with absolutely nohelp from the democratic party…many flaws to this assessment to the above commentary…I have witnessed these times, too, sir, and the changes thereof. Where is the party of Harry Truman? (and yes!) John Kennedy, etc……..

  89. Donald Trump has apparently replaced Satan, the monster under the bed, the crazy old guy who told you scary stories when you were a kid, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Charles Manson, Richard Nixon……and on and on. You ‘progressives’ crack me up!

  90. It is too bad when one assumes that all “Christians” are like someone who calls themselves Christian. It is also sad when someone judges others while condemning those who he thinks have judged others. That is called hypocrisy.

    1. Sandi, I agree with silicon, you’ve deflected. Rather than ponder the criticism of Cory’s, you’ve changed the subject to talk about border security. Honestly address his criticism, and if you disagree, give reasons why. Part of becoming mature in Christ is the ability to take criticism to heart and make changes where necessary. The church in America is far from perfect. Own it and seek ways to further the Kingdom and become more Christlike. Lest you think I am being holier than thou, my own background is evangelical. I have walked the walk. Talked the talk. Unfortunately, evangelicalism has become too enmeshed with “Rome,” to the point that it cannot be a prophetic voice to our government and hold it accountable. This is not a new problem, but goes all the way back to the era of Constantine, early 4th century. When collusion with the oppressive powers of government become the norm for the church, then blind patriotism becomes “orthodoxy.”

      That being said, I find Ben a bit “over-zealous” with his criticism at times, and I can get caught up in it. The danger is that as progressives we can miss the fact that God is not done with evangelicals. God is using various voices raised, to chastise and correct what has largely become a White Nationalist movement in America. Take an honest look at the Christian support for segregation in the South, then tell me evangelicals don’t have a “race problem.” Similarly, the hub-bub over “illegals,” and Muslim immigrants is less about security as it is white xenophobia.

      Having looked at some of the Pew research and other sources, there is a growing movement in evangelical circles toward inclusivity and social responsibility. For about roughly 30% of evangelicals, the gospel is not just about “going to heaven when you die.” This is especially true in the younger evangelical population. No doubt this concerns the older crowd, the Franklin Graham hanger-ons. Billy Graham said some things, btw, that were pretty prophetic:
      “I don’t want to see religious bigotry in any form. It would disturb me if there was a wedding between the religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest in religion except to manipulate it.” Franklin, I am afraid, is not much like his father. In fact, he embodies exactly what the above quote warns against.

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