Fact: gay Christians exist.
You might not like that fact, that fact may be hard for you to accept, and that fact may create a lot of tension for you, but it is still a fact nonetheless.
That’s the funny thing about facts. They stay true regardless of how we react to them.
I myself didn’t believe that gay Christians existed until just a couple of years ago. Until then, I would have put the term in obnoxious quotes (the discussion would have been about “gay Christians”). For me, it was a term that referred to a nonexistent people group– as if it were completely impossible to be both at the same time.
At a minimum, for me at least, gay Christians were as elusive as the chupacabra or bigfoot…
Until I met and got to know my friend “James” (that one is in quotes because I’m not going to use his real name).
I knew James for nearly two years before I found out he was gay. And, this wasn’t just knowing him from occasionally bumping into each other at the grocery store– we knew each other from serving together at church. James was one of the kindest people in my church and someone I looked forward to seeing each week. We also attended some classes at the church together and really got to know each other a lot more, as we consistently prayed and learned together.
All I knew about “James” was that he was one of the nicest people I knew, and that he really loved Jesus. It wasn’t until two years after knowing him and serving alongside him at church, that I learned he was gay.
I think what shocked me the most was my reaction to finding out– there really wasn’t one. Once upon a time I had thought that if or when such a moment happened, I would be filled with tension and an overwhelming desire to try to change the other person… but I wasn’t. I just wanted to be his friend, no strings attached. Perhaps the Spirit of God had been preparing my heart during those years without even knowing it.
For two years, I had experienced the fact that James loved Jesus (and the people of Jesus, aka the “Church”). Since a fact is “that which corresponds to reality” and I had spent two years observing reality, this truth couldn’t be doubted. In addition, I now knew what “corresponded to reality” was that James was also gay. Both became indisputable facts.
No longer a concept in my mind that lacked a real human being attached to it, I had then realized that yes– there are gay Christian who love Jesus and love the church. James was the first person in this category I had actually known in the context of a real and authentic friendship, but now I know many of them. You, many of my readers, are some of them.
I wish everyone had a gay Christian friend, because if you take the time to have an authentic friendship, it will begin to change you in unexpected and beautiful ways.
Like it or not, gay Christians exist– and this “discussion” on the entire issue isn’t going away anytime soon. Unfortunately, most of the time, the discussion doesn’t result in that many net positives. Simply throwing Bible verses back and forth without recognizing the real, actual people involved– people we’re commanded above all else to love– doesn’t move the conversation further. Instead, real people just become an “issue” or a “discussion” that many have at a comfortable distance- safely away from the messiness and uncomfortableness of real relationships and acknowledging real people.
So here is my plea to my conservative friends: when you engage in this “discussion” please remember, you’re talking about real people. Some of whom, are living as radical Jesus followers committed to the way of Jesus and committed to serving the body of Christ.
Whether or not gay marriage/homosexuality is a sin (not the topic of this post or even addressed here), the word Christian at its core means “little-Christs” or “Christ-like”. Which means, in fact, there are many, many gay Christians out there– because I know them personally. They’re my friends.
And I know they love Jesus.
It is nearly impossible to have a reasonable discussion about people you don’t even know, so if you have the opportunity to make a gay friend– Christian or otherwise– I’d invite you to do so. You just might find that such a relationship all of a sudden humanizes an issue that is so easy to detach from.
So please, remember: we’re talking about actual living, breathing people here– people created by God, and who bear his divine image. Please don’t allow this discussion to become about an “issue” you can safely detach from, but instead throw yourself into the tension of embracing the fact that we’re often talking about our own Christian brothers and sisters when we discuss this issue… even if that’s hard for you to accept.
Very good article. As a gay Christan myself I have found myself in the middle of a war between the two sides. I was about to give up until recently when I discovered there are people like yourself who are willing to address this issue. I’m still torn between the two sides but hopefully I can make some educated choices now.
My Bible does not condemn Homosexuality. My Bible warns those who live only for those things that feed the beast within man all the while starving the Spirit/Soul granted by God. The best analogy is that Money is not inherently bad; it is the love of money that is inherently bad. Those who live by feeding the beast that is man shall die a beast and separate from this world to return to God with a neglected Spirit. The fall of Sodom and Gomorrah was due to the how they had corrupted themselves to live wildly and continually by feeding the sexual appetite of the beastly side of man. Their souls were lost for they purposely starved the spirit granted by God. It is the calling of good evil and evil good that ultimately condemned them.
Some homophobics believe that homosexuals have only sex on their mind 24 hours a day 7 days a week. And many of those think pedophilia is included. I think that is so horribly untrue and unfair and that it is a self imposed delusion, an unsupported ignorance that I for one fervently feel violates the precepts of all religions. Their daily lives are not much different that ours. Days are filled with work, recreation, devotion, turmoil and happiness.
Quite plainly we are taught that we must live in this world and live by those things that support us a humans never forgetting that in our earthly acts we shall also deposit lessons of love and devotion to use when we ultimately are in the presence of God. You’ve met these people. The Investment Banker who sits in the front row of church and gives generously all the while thinking of the contracts and commissions he’ll earn on Monday. Sitting next to him is the elderly widow in a tattered morning dress, work worn hands, and with laugh worn lines as the passages of time etched upon her face; who, as the collection goes by gives her last copper pennies. Which of the two would our Father welcome into heaven? Now believe that the only love of her life she still mourns is long gone and was another just like her, her best friend and a woman.
The Love of God has no limits that any man can place.
-By an accident of Genetics a Heterosexual
– By the Grace of God an Enlightened Soul
loved your article. thank you.
Thanks for having the courage to take a stand in a minefield. I agree with you and support you. We must get away from our American worldview and come to a Christianly worldview – the one Jesus took – without the lens of our own prejudices and agendas muddling his pure perspective of love.
I am a proud conservative Christian. And Jesus’s view on men and women was never to judge others. I know in my heart Jesus wouldn’t preach to anyone, just show the love He died for. My job as a strong Christian wife, mother, and grandmother, is to honor God’s love, with love. Unprejudiced, and complete love to my fellow brothers and sisters regardless of their faith. My relationship with Christ is MINE. And mine alone. Hate is never in HIS name. That is an earthly trait, not a godly one. I actually think, even though I am a Christian, and haven’t called myself Catholic in 20 years, is why I love Saint Pope John Paul II so much. He was a Godly man. He would NEVER judge anyone coming to him looking for love, guidance, or hope. He was a giver of peace of heart, and would help anyone to find that love within Christ. He was a true angel here on earth, and walked in His word the most in any living man ever.
“That’s the funny thing about facts. They stay true regardless of how we react to them.”
This. Totally this. Weather it’s the nonsense of young-earth creationism or the idea that Gay equals Evil Hedonist, facts don’t back up some beliefs. Facts also don’t care about belief. You can hide the evidence of a fact, refuse to acknowledge a fact or simply claim your beliefs trump facts, but the fact stays factual.
Your friend James is a nice guy. He believes in the doctrines of Christianity. He’s gay. These are facts. These facts co-exist easily. They won’t change because someone refuses to see them, any more than the earth will suddenly become only 6,000 years old.
I first read that as “Gay equals Hobbit,” and then I thought my feet are kinda hairy…
I almost wish I’d written it. An alternative Tolkien. What an idea…
Great points. To be fair, we should do the same with brothers and sisters who have same-sex attractions and who for biblical reasons don’t define themselves by their sexual feelings,& who choose a different path. They also are real people.
Nobody makes that choice independently or in isolation… that happens due to the needless shame, guilt, denigration of human dignity, and open hostility that gay people experience since they are first aware of their sexuality. To consciously deny oneself the gifts of human relationship, companionship, love, and physical/sexual intimacy (or worse, twist themselves into some forced, feigned hetero-relationship-esque “this’ll fix me” situation) to conform to others’ expectations, “biblical” or otherwise, is a tragedy of immense proportion. What a grievous loss of time and opportunity we have here on Earth share authentic love. It’s not about being defined by “sexual feelings.” It’s about AFFIRMING them as part of who we are, innate and inborn, as rooted in our wholeness as our skin tone and eye color… our sexual ORIENTATION. God loves gay people not “in spite of” them being gay…. God loves us BECAUSE we’re gay! He made us that way. Life it too short and too precious to waste on hating oneself into an “ex gay” farce.
I hear what you’re saying, but the point is that it’s the person’s own business. I am specifically talking about people who decide to construct their identities in a different way: you are reading into what I wrote. I’m saying: they (people with a different perspective) are people, too. You talk about some of them as though they can’t possibly reach their own conclusions. It’s not my/your business to determine how other people should construct their own identities.
Of course they reached their own conclusions… with the “help” of shame, guilt, lies, and/or vile individuals who offer “spiritual guidance.” That’s the only way one would construct an identity (or, rather, contort themselves into an inauthentic existence) that goes completely against naturally occurring sexual orientation. I will always view this as a tragedy to be mourned and lamented. I obviously can’t stop a person from taking that route… but I will never view it as positive, healthy, or legitimate. Furthermore, I make it a point to fiercely fight those who would encourage that “choice”…. that is nothing short of abuse. For me, it’s not ok to sit there and observe somebody emotionally mutilating themselves, or watch as others spiritually violate my innocent gay brothers/sisters who are hurting. I’m obligated to say something. And I will. ALWAYS.
People use your exact way of thinking to harass people all the time: “we” should determine how they really are. They are befuddled; we know better.
You’re welcome to your opinion. But so are the others. Choice about one’s own identity is not abuse; that’s ludicrous. *Forced* choice, coercion, pressure, shaming, guilting — those are abusive. A choice to construct an identity how the individual wants to — whatever you think — is simply basic to human identity and dignity.
Don’t pretend you agree with this article if you can’t treat those who think differently like people. You’re *exactly* like people who try to make other people change themselves; what’s absurd is that you think you’re above those people!! You are those people. It’s not only people who agree w/ your perspective who deserve to be treated with respect.
Oh my god, PLEASE… don’t even act like you give a s*** about gay people whatsoever. Go do some f***ing READING on the unbelievable harm that “ex gay” and “repairative therapy” does to gay people… which clearly you support. It is spiritual and emotional abuse of the WORST kind…. a “choice” offered to people who are at an extremely vulnerable point, and who do ANYTHING to “be normal,” fit in, or be loved. Go and actually TALK to some “ex gay” people who are now “ex ex gay” about how their “choice” actually tore them apart inside, and caused them even further distress and trauma, as well as PISSING away years of time they could have spent living authentically as their true selves… only to be washed up in the end, damaged by the entire farce. I will not “respect” anything that promotes that. Ever. P.S.- You’re TALKING to a gay person whom this was part of their LIFE, a******. Get out of my face about s*** you personally know NOTHING about the personal destruction it causes. Ugh.
I believe you were hurt, because I’m not talking about it and yet you keep returning to reparative therapy. I’m talking about the nuances of constructing an identity, by one’s own choice. Insults don’t help your view seem more reasonable.
One wouldn’t need to “construct an identity” unless there is something “wrong to be fixed” or… REPAIRED. And the entire message to people like this should be: There’s NOTHING wrong with you. You are beautiful, in and out, through and through. And you deserve to live your God-given life as your authentic self, which naturally includes same-sex love, relationship, and intimacy. Because you were made that way, and born that way, and there is NOTHING that is ugly, unclean, or evil about that. It is ok to be you… to be GAY.
That’s it. I really don’t want to interact with your homophobic a** anymore. Peace out.
On the contrary, everyone in the world constructs an identity. We all tell the story of our lives, and we all choose what to emphasize or de-emphasize, what belongs center stage and what’s peripheral, and out of that story comes our sense of identity.
My whole point has been that how one does that (that universal task that everyone does) involves our desires and how we understand them. And this is a personal process. And it’s unhelpful when others shout at you and command you and harass you to do it the way they want you to do it.
God has the right to shape human identity. but we are not Him.
This from the man who doesn’t believe Evangelicals contribute to the horrific suicide rate among LGBT youth.
I truly fear for the children you ‘minister’ over.
What I actually wrote, TIA: ” I just don’t agree that Evangelicals are responsible, **as if there’s a
straight line** b/w morally conservative Christians and suicide. A lot of
Evangelicals don’t think God is in favor of homosexual behavior, and
yet are open to gay people in the sense of being nonjudgmental and
Homophobic treatment of people is terrible, and if you read the rest of what I wrote, you see that I think that way.
So so good. You made me want to know James. I too want this ongoing conversation to be about PEOPLE.
I, too, have several gay friends who are Christians. I also have Christian friends who are co-habitating instead of being married, struggling with addiction, prone to gossip, hateful to their spouses, greedy, even bigoted. For some reason, no one has trouble attaching the term Christian to any of the latter.
Well. Certainly it is likely true…—-for SOME gay people. God is a searcher of the heart. Is the state of the heart one that continues to ask God to show Him how He really feels about this lifestyle choice? I have a different form of sexual preference. Am I willing to give it up if I believe it is displeasing to God and against His will for me? None of us can speak for God. I do know that many of us—maybe even me—will miss the mark and be proven to have a faith that is lacking and the door will not be opened to us—having “taken the name of the Lord in vain” That is, vainly believing we really fulfill the requirements that go along with the privilege to be called by that name—a Christian. All I know is that I have a propensity to drift and judge others to make myself feel better. I do truly love those who are gay. But, I’m tgurned off to pride and a stubborn willfulness in myself and any person who sows to the flesh rather than the spirit and is smug in their knowledge of what God realloy thinks…
Conservative Christians have so demonized Gay folks that balanced discussion is utterly impossible.
Maybe it’s because it’s been a few years since you were conservative yourself, Mr. Corey, but I think you radically underestimate the extent to which conservative Christians hate LGBT people. They hate them. They were willing to let 10,000 children starve to keep gay people from helping the poor, remember? They’ll fight tooth and nail to keep from legitimising LGBT people in any way.
That’s undeniably (and sickeningly) true, but I know other conservatives (my parents, for example, and many from my old church) who were absolutely disgusted at the reaction to World Vision.
That being said, you could certainly classify their opposition to legalizing gay marriage as a form of legalism/bigotry, and yes I think it is. Yet … I used to hold their perspective too – and that only started changing upon meeting gay Christians, and LGBT people in general, as this article suggested. (I might even say God used gay people in my life to help me change).
I think the problem is many people truly, truly don’t see themselves as hateful by opposing LGBT rights; they see themselves as loving. And so, perhaps, the problem is that they misunderstand what love is…because LGBT people might be more of an object/problem to them than a person or a friend.
Ah! Sorry for the length of my reply. You sent me off into a maelstrom of thoughts!
“You sent me off into a maelstrom of thoughts!”
Your mind is a raging torrent! Flooded with rivulets of thought, cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives!!
(I’m sorry Ben lol. I read that part I quoted and instantly thought of that line from Blazing Saddles lol. It’s one of the silliest movies I’ve ever seen lol. Like I said before, thank you for standing up for those of us who are LGBTQ. People just like you literally saved me from ending my life, and gave me the strength to come out and live authentically.)
This is a very good article, Ben. I hope you’ll have it in your book. And thanks for all your articles about LGBTs.
Re. putting the term in obnoxious quotes… I know what you mean I once worked for a right-wing organization that wouldn’t even use the phrase gay Christian. I wrote a booklet for them on the Bible and homosexuality (not my proudest moment), and every time I used this phrase, they changed it to “homosexual Christian” — and putt in quotes just to drive home the point — mostly because my boss had a chip on his shoulder about the term gay having been “hijacked,” in his view. (You didn’t even want to get him started about rainbows.)
Seems like this article is mostly a plea for people to be nicer to gay people… “go make some gay friends, guys.” That’s all fine and good… but as an LGBT person myself, my primary concern is being treated equally under the law. If you are against my equal rights and support discrimination against me… then you might as well act the part and be horrible towards me. It makes it much easier to fight you… and makes your defeat so, so, so much sweeter with every court victory, anti-discrimination law passed, etc.
Sorry that the post comes off that way, but please see the entire context of my work– I have long been an outspoken supporter of marriage equality for the LGBTQ community, and have been beaten pretty bad by my own tribe for taking a stand on it. This is just one piece in a broader discussion.
No, no, no… I didn’t mean “you” as in YOU! I meant “you” as in I’m speaking directly to the people who are anti-equality. Sorry for the confusion, mate.
I think the real point of “making some gay friends” is that when you do, it is much harder to treat people in such an abhorant way. If you know and interact with gay friends and truly love them and value them as friends, it’s almost impossible to support the legal (or social or religious) discrimination that is levied upon them. It’s not about just being nice to gay people, it’s about getting to know them and thusly getting to a point where you can’t help but be appalled by the hardships they endure because you know these are living, breathing people.
I will stop supporting gay marriage once churches start teaching divorce(other than adultery) and remarriage(in all cases) is sinful.(I doubt this will ever happen)
Have you considered becoming a Catholic? Priests are supposed to deny Communion to remarried people.
No they do closed communion and I am not down with saint or icon veneration(not my cup of tea)
actually my grandmother was married outside of the church..by a JP.. to another catholic. She was denied communion until and including the day she died. They gladly took her money and her services as a baker .. but she was not allowed to participate fully in mass, have confessions heard nor receive any other ‘sacraments’
Conservative Mennonite churches as well as the Amish and Hutterites teach this.
I would but I am not pietistic or pacifist.
Ah, additional conditions… Have It Your Way. 😉
I am very conservative, very conservative…..I am pro-gun, anti abortion…that said, people who are gay are just like left handed people. Say what you want, God made them that way.
Do I believe there are gay Christians? Yes.
Look, I do not understand what the deal is with hang up with sex is in the Christian community…..I have been reading the Gospels lately and one of Christ’s biggest problem was with preachers….I’m sure he’d feel the same way today….
I just want to say that God did not make them that way. Read Romans 1:24-28. Put it this way. It’s scientifically proven that men think about sex multiple times a day (some say more than a 100 times a day. It sounds inaccurate but makes sense when we consider the way men look at women’s body parts). And Jesus says that whoever looks at a womwn lustfully already committed adultery. Men are born with the lust for sex. While men are born with the lust for sex, it does not excuse men from being sinners. The Bible is not to be altered and tailored to our desires and needs. We need to change.
I don’t share your belief in an inerrant Bible. I think it’s much more important to be fair and kind to other people than to follow rigid rules from a distant past that have little or no relevance to my life. Do you understand that I have the same right to my beliefs that you have to yours?
Yes, do read Romans 1, but do not stop there–go onto Romans 2 AND learn about the context in which it was written. There is always more there. I just learned a little more this morning when I listened to the video at the bottom of the following post http://www.patheos.com/blogs/johnshore/2014/05/southern-baptist-pastor-accepts-his-gay-son-changes-his-church/
John.. first.. which ‘version’ of a bible are your quoting? You do realize that that book was written from 600 to 1600 years after the time of Christ.. Stories passed down over that many years tend to change. Besides that, there are many different authors to that book… a pope had one of the earliest versions done.. to his liking. A British king also re-wrote that bible .. (ever hear of King James Version?) to include things he liked and eliminate things he didnt want. and there have been literally hundreds of versions …. all claiming to be the one and only. One of the more recent of those was the book by Jacob Smith. There have also been many gospels written a few have been included in modern versions but many are just ignored because they question things that happened.
Another point… Christ Never Condemned or judged gays.. and if you are claiming to be “Christian” you must follow Christ’s teachings… not a follower of his.. following a mans teaaching validates Jacob Smith’s bible.
Hello, Teddytoy. First, the book of Romans was not written 600-1600 years after the time of Christ. Second, Christ never condemned gay Christians. Jesus also never condemned rapists, pornography, drug addicts, and domestic violence. So are they justified because Jesus never mentioned them? Perhaps Jesus did not feel the need to address it since marriage was meant to be between a man and woman. Why did God create Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve? With that said, I do not condemn gay Christians. What I don’t understand is that why do they twist the Bible to justify their sexual orientation? Heterosexual Christians do not twist the BIble to justify their use of marijuana, sex outside of marriage, pornography, etc. We know we are not perfect. But we do not twist the Bible to justify our actions.
“We know we are not perfect. But we do not twist the Bible to justify our actions.”
You are so full of —-. Here are just a few things straight people have twisted scripture to support:
The subjugation of women
Not allowing interracial marriage
Unfair trials and executions (Spanish Inquisition?)
That’s just off the top of my head.
Lie some more. As Rhianna would say “I love the way you lie.”
Also, read Matthew 19:4-6.
“I just want to say that God did not make them that way.”
Very well. So let me ask you this: at what point did you decide to be straight?
When the issue of marriage equality came up in my state, I posted that it only made sense to me that all of the people that attended my wedding have the ability to do what I did, including the Episcopal priest who presided over our wedding.
I find it interesting that you repeatedly say ‘gay Christians’ and
repeatedly say that we should get to know them….of course we should get to know
anyone who our Lord puts in our path who we regularly see inclusive of our
neighbors regardless of what they do and how they live their lives, Jesus calls
us to love our ‘neighbors’…..to use the term ‘gay Christian’ is an odd term and
not sure why you feel the need to do so. I find it insignificant and in
fact even possibly harmful….it is like saying ‘adulterous Christian, alcoholic
Christian, thief Christian, debt Christian, liar Christian, and we could apply
the prefix of every sin that the bible refers to….
I believe there is no need for believers and unbelievers to identify with our
sins because we have a Savior who identifies us as His brother or sister,
friend, and as His and our Father’s beloved child. We are wonderfully and
uniquely made in God’s Glorious Image. The Father no longer sees us (believers)
in our sin because of what Jesus has done on the cross, through His atoning
work and through His resurrection from the dead.
Engaging in homosexual behavior is a sin just as all the other behaviors which
our Lord refers to as sin in His Scriptures-Bible……identifying a group of
Christians by their sin is minimizing what our Lord has done. Any gay person or
any ‘Christian’ who condones their sin behavior and continues in it without
repentance is a concern and possibly can even reveal maybe they are not saved
according to Scripture – any brother or sister in Christ who condones a
believer’s un-repented lifestyle is enabling and causing the person to continue
to stumble. I am NOT saying that we should NOT love people who are engaged in
behavior which Jesus claims is sin; of course we should love all people as
Jesus is truly capable of giving each believer the capacity to not sin when
tempted as He says in 1 Corinthians 10:13: “No temptation has overtaken you but
such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted
beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of
escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.” We all are tempted in
areas we are weak and God will make a way for us whether we struggle with
sexual or any other sin.
Let’s call sin behavior what it is -Sin and Bondage- which our passionate Jesus
wants to free someone of, and let’s stop as Christians identifying with our
sins and let’s exhort the freedom which Jesus will give and desires for all of
Father’s children to walk in, to walk in His Victory! Let’s exhort all
those who struggle with any behavior which Jesus declares as sin to Jesus and
to the truth that He can free anyone from whatever sin-behavior they struggle
with if they will submit to Him as their Lord and Savior over their lives and
embrace the reality of His Truth and Love and Compassion and of His Tangible
Capacity to heal broken areas of our minds, hearts, spirits, and bodies in His
Authority over all things through His resurrection power. Hebrews 4: 14-16
says about Jesus and His help and capacity to make a way for us to not engage
when we are tempted with sin behavior:
“Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the
heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not
have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has
been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. Therefore let us draw
near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and
find grace to help in time of need.”
Let’s receive the abundant Life He desires for all men and women to know on
earth, and let’s exhort all men and women to the Hope of Jesus and to His
capacity to give us victory over all behavior which makes us captives and bounds
us to the life of death instead of to His Life of FREEDOM!!
If you and your church hold the same opinions and concerns toward those who are divorced and remarried…I imagine your church is fairly empty.
And fat people. Let’s not pretend that gluttony is something that happens every once in awhile. If your church allows for fat people, but not gay people, your church is hypocritical and “picking and choosing” which hatreds are most acceptable.
Dear Ryan, you are not reading or understanding that I agree with you and I won’t respond again after I repeat this again….yes, I believe gluttony and all behavior which Jesus refers to sin needs to be dealt with in kindness and love exhorting the followers of Jesus to Him, to His Hope, to the truth that He can free us from all behavior which He states is harmful to us (sin). He calls us to lovingly exhort all of us to the Lord’s capacity to free us from any behavior that He calls sin. We are not to condone and settle for behaviors which He says is harmful to us, inclusive of gossip, lying, stealing, adultery, etc. He has so much more for us in His Passion to make a way for us to live in His abundant life…..I too struggle with areas which He claims is sin, but I do not say it is okay when I fall and except that it is okay for me to continue in a behavior which grieves our Jesus. I ask my brothers and sisters to hold me accountable, I call them and ask them to pray for me when I am tempted, and I cry out to our Lord for His HELP and He shows up and it is radical…. He desires for us to live in the Freedom He offers of any behavior which He says is sin. I won’t respond again, I truly hope you and everyone who reads this can hear my heart and exhortation to Jesus’ passion to free us from any behavior which He says is ‘sin’, which is behavior which He says will harm us because He knows what behavior is harmful because He created us. God bless you, Lo
I highly doubt that you agree with me. I don’t believe in anything supernatural, let alone sin or Jesus. But I appreciate you. The more vocal you are, the more equality spreads across America. So, thank you for your help.
“We are not to condone and settle for behaviors which He says is harmful
to us, inclusive of gossip, lying, stealing, adultery, etc.”
Gossip, lying, theft and adultery break the trust of others. The harm to interpersonal relationships is pretty obvious with each of these things. How does being in a gay relationship break anyone’s trust or harm them?
For the third time, comparing a gay relationship with things that obviously hurt others is silly. It only shows that you haven’t thought this through and don’t really understand what sin is other than from an un-Christian legalistic perspective.
Gluttony is harmful. Greed is harmful. Lust for power is harmful. They are also sins. Yet they are generally ignored in churches. Why?
Please read my whole response, I refer to all behaviors which Jesus refers to as sin, that we should uphold and exhort all of us to the truth that Jesus is our REDEEMER and He truly is capable of freeing us of any behavior which He says in Scripture which is contrary to Him – you do not know me personally – I have several dear friends who struggle with sexual sin of all sorts sexual sin inclusive of homosexual behavior. As I wrote in my response to Corey’s need to use sin labels to identify the children of God, I do not identify my dear friends who struggle with sexual sin by their sin behavior – I exhort and point them to the truth of how much Jesus and the Father loves them and sees them as a beloved child of God, not as by identifying them to their behavior which is contrary to Christ. Please hear my heart and carefully listen to what I am exhorting – it sounds like you did not hear the true meaning of my post, nor of my love for all of us regardless of our weaknesses and struggles with any sin behavior.
If you’re calling their sexual orientation a “behavior,” you’re not loving them at all.
Read my post carefully and don’t jump to assumptions or add to what my intent of my written content is. Sexual orientation is a psychology term and is again putting people into a box which the science of psychology has pinioned which Jesus does not do. All people are created wonderfully in God’s image.
The answer to your question is: no I am not calling “their sexual orientation a behavior” because we are just referring to the propensity towards a behavior- Any propensity to engage in a behavior which Jesus refers to as ‘sin behavior” is temptation. Jesus will give us a way out, the ability to NOT engage in that temptation of behavior (the sexual activity) whether it is sexual or lying, or stealing, or drug addictions, etc…..we all have propensities of weakness in our fallen state of humanity to be tempted by certain ‘sin-behaviors’ ie, orientations. If someone is attracted to the same sex and does not act upon that and lives an abstinent life from engaging in sexual behavior with the same sex he or she has not committed any sin.
To borrow from Matthew Vines, where else in the Bible is abstinence used as an imposition on someone else who doesn’t take it on willingly, or as a gift? What you’re recommending is a punishment for a crime they haven’t committed. How is that biblical?
Loving another human being and expressing that love in a selfless and sacrificial way, both physically and emotionally, is not a sin-behaviour. Anyone who thinks so completely misunderstands what “sin” is.
Also, comparing a monogamous gay relationships to lying, stealing or drug addictions will only get mockery from gay people. Lying and stealing cause objective harm to innocent third parties. You’re breaking the trust of another if you do those things. Drug addictions have obvious and objective harmful effects both to the individual and their loved ones. In contrast, being in a monogamous gay relationship doesn’t harm others, nor does it cause any objective harm to self. Even if it is a sin, which it isn’t, it would be the breaking of a purity code – like eating pork or doing work on the Sabbath.
Sorry but you just don’t know what you’re talking about.
Oh wow, you are the total embodiment of what is wrong with the church today. So basically, if you’re gay, you are bound to give up your innate sexuality and live as a celibate eunuch virgin forever… or force yourself to marry the opposite sex and be emotionally/spiritually miserable. That’s your resolution?! You are an uncaring out of touch person, and you are most definitely a force that is pushing people away from faith.
And please stop lying about Jesus. He never EVER referred to homosexuality, let alone refer to it as a sin. Bearing false witness and taking the Name of The Lord in vain is sin. Selah, sweetie!!
While I believe gay marriage should be allowed Jesus did say
English Standard Version (ESV)
4 He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”
So he dose not say anything against homosexuality(if you just go by Jesus not the other NT books) but he dose say male and female should marry.
No. He was asked about divorce and his response speaks to permanence and monogamy. If one has to take verses out of their rhetorical context to make a point they’re doing far more damage to the integrity of scripture than any gay person.
Yea I don’t take it strict literally which is why I stated that I support gay marriage. Not sure what your problem is I am just stating facts.
Really great reason to pre-order my book on Amazon. I deal with my passage in this book– when we think Jesus was attempting to define marriage here, we are reading into this verse the cultural issues of our day instead of seeing the actual cultural issues of his day.
Did Jesus “never EVER” say anything about homosexuality, given that the gospels don’t pretend to be complete accounts of his teaching, and that John said (hyperbolically) that all the books in the world couldn’t hold his teaching?
And wouldn’t Jesus’s deviation from Jewish belief concerning homosexuality likely have given more ammunition to the religious leaders against him, and alienated his disciples, to boot? And yet the gospel writers are not shy about recording both types of conflict, along with teachings that contradicted standard understandings of the Torah . . .
Being gay is not a sin. Never has been, never will be.
I don’t struggle with homosexual behaviour. I’m gay and am very happy with how God made me. Most other gay people feel the same way. It’s not a struggle. It’s a part of who we are – like having blue eyes or blond hair. I’m in a happy relationship with someone who gives me great joy in life. I believe God put him in my life for a reason.
And you miss her point. Jesus called remarriage after divorce “adultery”. St Paul says that the only moral choices for someone who divorces is reconciliation with their spouse or celibacy (1 Cor 7:10-11). Do you think everyone in their second marriage “struggles” with the sexual sin of being in an ongoing adulterous relationship?
Again, you just don’t know what you’re talking about.
Is someone supposed to take up an offering now, following your rather lengthy,self righteous sermon?
Here’s a penny.
“.it is like saying ‘adulterous Christian, alcoholic, Christian, thief Christian, debt Christian, liar Christian,”
These things cause objective harm to oneself and others. Adultery breaks a trust between two people. A thief steals property that doesn’t belong to that person. A liar deceives others, etc. Being in a gay relationship doesn’t do objective harm to anyone. It’s not based on deceiving others. It doesn’t depriving someone of their rightful property. It’s not based on breaking a promise to others and betraying their trust, etc. So you’re comparing apples and oranges.
Yes. As Jesus said, the whole of the law is summed up in the commands to love God and love our neighbour, lying stealing and committing adultery hurt people, a loving and faithful same sex marriage doesn’t.
Does your church “exhort the freedom from sin” in the case of pride? Do they regard gluttony as a “sin-behavior?” What about arrogance? Desire for power? These are all pretty common in churches, yet they are pretty-much ignored. Why do perceived sexual sins mandate changes, while other sins get a free pass?
And if God can truly transform peoples basic identity, making people with a gay sexual orientation straight, why does this not happen? Why are people born with a gay orientation at all?
“it is like saying ‘adulterous Christian, alcoholic
Christian, thief Christian, debt Christian, liar Christian, and we could apply
the prefix of every sin that the bible refers to….”
Yeah, thanks for comparing me to a criminal. Jerk. Why not complete this trifecta of stupid by comparing me to a paedophile and someone into bestiality like you people always do?
My “conduct”; also known as my “behavior or my “lifestyle”
I spend a lot of time with my computer, because that is one of my passions. It’s the only thing I’m really good at. I tend to stay up late because I’m a night owl. I also spend a lot of time with my roommates and their kids. Not to “convert them” as a lot of you seem to believe, but because I love them and love spending time with them. I’m helping the kids learn to read, it’s very rewarding. No, not “gay propaganda”, the last book First Born read to me was about a mole that couldn’t find his shadow. Watching them grow and learn is fascinating and very exciting. So the meme that we hate kids, and are trying to indoctrinate them is BS (if we hate kids, why would we indoctrinate them??)
Ok. so anyway I also help my roommates around the house with cleaning and what not, and watching the kids when they need to go out somewhere. I also have friends I keep up with, and talk to because I care about them so very much. They are life savers in every since of the word.
That’s really all I do, aside from eating, sleeping, showering and other things. The other things, just to calm your fears involve waste removal, and I’m not going into detail about it.
If you’re concerned about “what I do in bed”, quite frankly, that’s none of your freaking business. But for full disclosure, I’ll tell you. Please forgive the next sentence for being gratuitously graphic:
It’s a bed, I sleep there.
So that’s my “conduct.” My “behavior.” My “lifestyle.”
Would you care to point out, IN DETAIL, what you find so objectionable? What bothers you so much? What is so offensive as to deserve disownment?
I am a gay Christian and recently on my blog cautioned “liberal” churches to not lapse into the illusion of acceptance or inclusion created by making rule changes or doctrine changes saying that gay Christians are allowed. My point was that “legislation” does not change hearts. Jesus himself points this out many times. And as you point out, change of hearts happen when we bother to build bridges to connect. That bridge is Jesus. So, thank you for this blog post and for extending yourself out of what may have been your comfort zone. This is what Jesus asks us to do. He asks us to step out of that boat. Grace and Blessings to you.